1945-S Mercury Dime Mint Mark Variety Questions

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 6,747
ThisIsFun Pillar of the Community United States 2480 Posts	Posted 02/18/2013 09:07 am Finally finished the first-pass sorting of the Mercs-- by date-- and am now sorting dates by mint marks and looking for varieties. I just finished the 1945-S batch and have questions about mint mark varieties. As I understand it, the knob tail is most common, followed by the trumpet tail and much less commonly, the micro S. Here's the breakdown of the 43 1945-S Mercs found: 31 common knobtails 2 inverted knobtails? (see question and pictures below) 8 trumpet tails 2 micro S I didn't see any RPMs among the knobtails but I have a questions about the orientation. In Cherrypickers, it looks like the upper knob is teardrop-shaped and the lower knob blunted. In The Complete Guide to Mercury dimes (online athttp://blog.davidlawrence.com/index...ch-6-1945-s/ ), there are pictures of two RPMs and in those photos, the lower knob is teardrop-shaped and the upper knob blunted. There is clearly an orientation to the S based on the different upper and lower knob shapes. Which one is supposed to be top? Which one bottom? I don't see an inverted mint mark listed as a variety, so is it simply that no one cares? Among the 33 knob tails I found, 31 have the teardrop-shape knob on the upper S and 2 on the lower S. From that, I would assume the former is the more common, but in Cherrypickers the photos show the opposite (but say nothing about orientation). Can anyone enlighten me? Here are photos of some of our knob tails. #1 is the more common (among our coins) teardrop on the upper, #2 and #3 show the teardrop on the bottom. Which is considered inverted and why isn't mint mark orientation for this issue considered a variety? Second question-- opinions on these trumpet tails. #1, 2, and #4 look odd. Is it just PMD? Could these be RPMs or is it just PMD/worn die? I don't see any RPMs listed by Coneca for trumpet tails. Thanks for looking, I appreciate any opinions or input. Report this Post to the Staff

macmercury Pillar of the Community United States 5833 Posts	Posted 02/18/2013 12:48 pm Both MM styles exhibit worn die and/or PMD, over time I have looked at various so called inverted knob tail S dimes, but IMO its solely due to different minting stages being applied at the Mint. As you can see in your own knob tail S pictured #3, there's an outline to the loop to the top of the S that's chip away due to excessive usage. But! If there ever was a trumpet tail S appearance that is inverted, you bet it will cause some controversial among Mercury dimes experts. Report this Post to the Staff
ThisIsFun Pillar of the Community United States 2480 Posts	Posted 03/07/2013 6:28 pm I've looked at these coins again and given it more thought. I'm having trouble believing that the differences I'm seeing in those knobtails is just Die Deterioration, PMD, minting stages, etc. Look at the space inside the loops-- the shape of the negative space. One space has a more vertical component (in the half with the knob) and the other loop space is more rounded/elliptical. In the example picture, coin 1 shows the knob (and more vertical component) in the top portion of the S; in coin 3, the knob and vertical component are in the lower S. Macmercury-- I see what you are saying about the possible chipping away of the loop (coin 3) but I see that same appearance at the tip the blunted lower end of the S in picture #1. In addition to loss of the knob tip on the die, an additional event or condition has to happen to create a 'false knob' on the other end. I realize that metal does move and flatten out as the coin is banged around, but for that to explain the appearance of a false knob on the lower part of coin 3, there would have to have been a very fortuitous hit to a very discrete area and I just don't see that happening. The moved metal would have retained the blunted shape or if struck by something smaller than the knob, an irregularly deformed shape. Report this Post to the Staff
Drsandman2 Pillar of the Community United States 1374 Posts	Posted 03/08/2013 01:20 am Kudos to your awesome research! Thanks for sharing. My challenge to you would be to seek out these differences on mint state coins. Late mercs are very affordable in AU and MS. Let your coin dealers know you are into mercs, and study MM types and positions. They will most likely let you loupe over what they have before you make a purchase. Report this Post to the Staff
ThisIsFun Pillar of the Community United States 2480 Posts	Posted 03/08/2013 03:20 am Drsandmand2-- good idea, I'll keep an eye out. Meanwhile I'll take a look at all the high res 1945-S mercs pictures on PCGS Coin Facts, ha.com archives, etc. Y'know, these knobtail esses really rub me the wrong way aesthetically. Very poor design, at odds with the classical devices on the rest of the coin. I mean c'mon... it's the numismatic equivalent of Comic Sans. A quick review of some PCGS and HA photos shows that the typical orientation seems to have the knob at the top. That's just plain wrong, lol. The broader/heavier loop of a capital S should be at the bottom, at least by traditional typography. I wonder if the mints just picked an orientation and ran with it without really considering which is the top and which is the bottom. Just thinking out loud here Edited by ThisIsFun 03/08/2013 03:26 am Report this Post to the Staff
Drsandman2 Pillar of the Community United States 1374 Posts	Posted 03/08/2013 6:43 pm Good idea about cruising HA, didn't think of that. I've noticed the same things you've pointed out after going through mercs in the past, but I finally decided it wasn't the effort to figure it all out. Would be cool if you found something new; the series is very popular. Report this Post to the Staff
ThisIsFun Pillar of the Community United States 2480 Posts	Posted 03/09/2013 09:11 am More info about the knobtail S (aka Ball Serif S). I forgot to see what Variety Vista had to say about it-- just noticed that they have a whole section on mint mark styles. Per this source, the knobtail S is MMS-006, "Ball Serif, with flat spot on *lower ball*" http://varietyvista.com/San%20Franc...20Styles.htm Picture from that page: So I guess the real question is how many dies had the upside down knobtail S? (including all the coin denominations and years in which this style was used) Just a few? Half? Is the variant worth a premium or is it just something of academic interest? A quick check of current ebay MS or AU offerings (1945-S 10c) in which pictures were high enough resolution showed a few of both orientations, so that's not encouraging. At some point I should look at all our coins with the knobtail S and also seek out high res pics from the internet so that I'll have a more meaningful sample size for this little study. Edited by ThisIsFun 03/09/2013 09:16 am Report this Post to the Staff
Davelovesdimes New Member United States 20 Posts	Posted 06/19/2014 2:32 pm Hello fellas! In humble o, pics 2 and 3 are IMM. I have been carefully studying the issue of the 45 s IMM dime and have some conclusions. I have a handful of what I think are IMM dimes. Some are in mint state. Two are for sale on ebay. None have been sent in and attributed. I have sold four examples in the last month totaling over $300 in revenue. There is a clear demand for this variety. It is listed by J. Wiles of CONECA as extremely rare. I am conducting an ongoing survey of all visible 45 s dimes being offered on ebay. I am counting every dime I can identify by sight and recording them by mm type, orientation and RPM if applicable. After I finish my study, I will publish the results. I expect to be able to by sample determine relative scarcity for the Trumpet and the IMM dimes. I invite any and all input on this topic and my stated endeavor. Report this Post to the Staff
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