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Pillar of the Community
Anjohl's Avatar
Canada
815 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  10:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Anjohl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any legal tender must be accepted for debt payment, in any denomination. The limits on coins per transaction has to do with retail transactions. If I owe the bank $1000, and bring them 200 maples to pay it, they either accept or write off the debt. THAT's the law.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Any of the coins from the proof-like, proof or specimen sets are NCLT as well, however I am confident that I could take quarters from 2010 Uncirculated sets and use them for payment as long as I didn't try to use more than forty of them.


Poor example. If insanity were to set in and you cracked open a 2006 proof set I think you could use every coin to purchase an item except the 50 cent coin and the silver dollar. The silver dollar and 50 cent piece will be rejected outright by any ignorant person. The reason for this is, as you mentioned, the familiarity of existing circulating currency and people's lack of knowledge and time to examine the currency in full detail. How many times have you received US coins in your change. They are not legal currency in Canada but we still use it for trade.

Regardless of being legal tender, there will always be a caveat to using NCLT coins to pay for transactions. Where it can be done in theory the practical application is almost nonexistent.

Edited by Dooby Rak
05/02/2013 10:24 am
Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Any legal tender must be accepted for debt payment, in any denomination. The limits on coins per transaction has to do with retail transactions. If I owe the bank $1000, and bring them 200 maples to pay it, they either accept or write off the debt. THAT's the law.


You keep saying this but have never provided evidence of such a law. Just like picking Trilium followers in Ontario. While it is a popular belief that it is illegal to pick the common Trillium grandiflorum (white trillium) in Ontario, in reality they are only protected in provincial parks and land owned by conservation authorities.However, the rare Trillium flexipes (drooping trillium) is protected by law in Ontario,because of its very small Canadian population.

Just because you believe it is the law does not make it so.
Pillar of the Community
canuck1us's Avatar
United States
1002 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  11:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canuck1us to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
@canuck1us is the $20 worth $20

Marty> In terms of a "legal tender" discussion it is, as it is the denomination or face value that comes into play, not the underlying metallurgic composition.

Dooby>The practical application has been virtually non-existent up until the issuance of the 20-4-20 and the 100-4-100. "Practically" no one would choose to use a coin they paid more than face value for, as a means of payment for its face value. Now, it becomes more of a practical consideration - which generates this whole discussion in the first place.

Sure, I could more practically pass American change to buy coffee at a Tim Hortons than using a 20-4-20, but legally the 20-4-20 is a valid payment.



Pillar of the Community
kuh_85's Avatar
Canada
2366 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe there was a previous thread on this. My vague memory of what it came down to is that the retailer has the right to decide what they accept as payment. For example, some say they don't accept $100 bills. So just because it's "legal tender" doesn't mean they have to accept it. However banks must accept it at face value. While many bank staff may be unfamiliar with the process to do so (and therefore say they don't) it is spelled out by the central bank (memory is even vaguer on exactly which institution it was) and they can obtain the necessary information by contacting them.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So if nobody want NCLTs as payment even though it may be entirely legal to use them, why didn't the mint just call these Legal Tender? If they had done that there would be no issue now. So why are these coins NON CIRCULATING? Not even the Mint is willing to exchange them for real currency. So regardless of the designation, if no one will give you face value for it what good is it? It's effectively and practically not real currency.

I'm not saying don't buy these, just don't buy $100 for $100 coins as an investment and don't expect to walk into a GM dealership with a sack of $100 for $100 coins thinking anything will happen other than being sent home empty handed and getting laughed at.
Pillar of the Community
Anjohl's Avatar
Canada
815 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  12:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Anjohl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No offense, but I think some of you are misding the didrçtiction between currency and debt payment. Paying a bill has different (much more liberal) standards than buying a bag of chips or aTV.
Valued Member
yellowperch's Avatar
Canada
121 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2013  11:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yellowperch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So if I leave my wallet at home, go put $40 worth of gas into my car, and hand over 2 silver wolfs they're going to:

A. Take the money
B. Have a hissy fit and take the money
C. Call the police

I'm tempted to try it, just for entertainment.
Pillar of the Community
SA4H's Avatar
United States
2764 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2013  04:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SA4H to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to agree with Anjohl.

The term "Legal Tender", by definition (which I have quoted here: https://goccf.com/t/148324&whichpage=7#1349146) can be use to pay DEBT (not necessarily buying/exchange for stuffs, this is COMMERCE). So, if you own someone money (ie: debt) then you can use any form of legal tender to pay off your debt (with limitation set by the law). As in the case of 20-4-20 or 100-4-100, you are limited to ONE coin per transaction.

What does that mean: You can use ONE of those two mentioned coins to pay off any DEBT (at face value). On the other hand, when you want to buy something, the merchant does NOT have to accept those coins as PAYMENT (basically they just refused your business). One must be very clear on this: DEBT vs PAYMENT are two separated and different thing.

Note: In commerce, the exchange of goods & services, as in I'll trade you my apple for your orange or I'll trade my 1hr labor for your 1ozt of silver round or I'll trade you my bike for your $100 bill ===> the form of payments for any of these transaction just have to be agreed between the two parties. Most of the time, what we are doing are buying/selling/trading for goods and services, this is COMMERCE. You may be paying for your gas or for grocery but this is the exchange of goods and services, NOT DEBT.

So, going back to the point: The $100-4-$100 is a great coin with good collector values. However, I have to agree with Dooby Rak's statement "don't buy .... as an investment.... ". One should NOT being doing what he's describing anyways; since we know the limit on using this coin to pay DEBT (one coin per transaction), and investment carry a lot of risk + collectible coins and investment usually don't go together.

One last thing: It's true that the government has all the authority to legalize or un-legalize anything. However, doing so, in the case of the legal status of any part of the currency system will UNDERMINE the system itself. For the stability of the system, the country, and the flow of commerce, all the modern democratic government (over the last 300 years) have never remove the legal status of their own currency. What they do is DEVALUE it and/or let the 'bad money' push 'good money' out of circulation (in the case of silver and gold coins being replaced by based metal coins, US Mint stop minting the Half-Cent coin because of the devaluation of USD). In modern history, when there's a change in the government system (as in communist take over, fascist take over, or democratic take over (the case of West Germany & East Germany)) then the government in power usually change or remove the legal status of the previous government through a system of exchange currency.

Oh, by the way, if any of you want to exchange/use any of your NCLT coins (coins such as these: dino GITD, birds, silver, gold, proof, etc) for face value, just let me know and I'll gladly do it for you, when we split the cost of shipping.

Pillar of the Community
SA4H's Avatar
United States
2764 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2013  04:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SA4H to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
May be someone can do us a favor and take one of the $20-4-$20 coin to the bank (walk to the counter) and pay one of their credit card debt (the debt must be more than $20).

Be ready to tell them that it's "legal tender for all debt" as written in the law and you may have to give them the section of the law as mentioned by Dooby Rak (not everyone know about this law, as we all have seen/known) and may be the mint phone number. At the end of the day, they will have to accept your form of payment..... they may give you a big fuss about it, but they WILL HAVE TO accept it.

IF they don't, let me know and I'll exchange your $20-4-$20 coin for $25 cash.
New Member
Canada
0 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2013  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dephrag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
*** Edited by Staff - Please Review the rules that you agreed to when you registered. ***
Valued Member
jbsquash's Avatar
Canada
99 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2013  11:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbsquash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dephrag are you being serious, please elaborate on what happened?
New Member
Canada
0 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2013  11:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dephrag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
*** Edited by Staff - Please Review the rules that you agreed to when you registered. ***

I actually did take them to the bank awhile back just what to see what they said. Everyone at the bank was curious and the teller was telling everyone to come over and look. She had to ask the manager of course as she didn't know how to put it into the computer. He was super nice about it and was just more fansinated by them more then anything else. While I was waiting some ppl in line were overlooking and assking questions about them. ended selling about 8 of them for $30 a pop while waiting.. After the manager made a call, 10 mins later he said no prob, he'd love to. At that point I said I changed my mind as I just sold some and could get more for them. In the end the manager and cashiers were a little dissapointed as they wanted to get their hands on them. It was quite the aight though cause I did open them ip in this big box (my custom GO7 case), it looked like treasure!

So in the end YES they WILL take them, they just won't know how to input it into the computer or handle them without a district manager type person..
Pillar of the Community
canadian_coins's Avatar
United States
2408 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2013  11:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian_coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
ended selling about 8 of them for $30 a pop while waiting..


That's about what I got on ebay, and more.

May not be Legal Tender, but close enough.
Valued Member
deal_with_singh's Avatar
Canada
110 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2013  12:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add deal_with_singh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a heads up I've successfully deposited these to my bank, no hold period. A long process with lots of paper work though (took 2 hours to deposit 100 of these coins)
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