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 Replies: 10 / Views: 2,604 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
they way I understand it, because of the extreme shortage of small denomination coins in the early 1800s blacksmith tokens (known counterfeits) were generally accepted by the public as legal payment. it still doesn't change the fact that they were counterfeits does it? yet if they are labelled as "blacksmith tokens" they are sell-able on ebay, but coins actually physically marked COPY are not... or does ebay, and/or the general collectors market, treat contemporary counterfeits differently? if so, how old does a contemporary counterfeit have to be to fall under this category? |
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Moderator
 Australia
16857 Posts |
It's not a matter of "age", as such; it's more a case of whether or not the coins being imitated were in circulation at the time the counterfeit was made. That makes them "contemporary counterfeits" and therefore desirable and collectable. Counterfeits made long after the coins ceased to circulate are made specifically to fool collectors (or innocent tourists) and we want no part in encouraging their business. In theory, ebay treats contemporary counterfeits and modern counterfeits the same - both are banned. This policy does rile those collectors of contemporary counterfeits, such as forum member swamperbob, who can only buy the coins they collect on ebay when they are misrepresented as genuine coins. Honestly describing a coin as a "counterfeit" in any way in your listing is likely to see your listing pulled. Some "evasive" counterfeits, however, are perfectly acceptable. Canadian blacksmith tokens are one such; British evasion tokens are another. Although the people making them would likely have been hung for counterfeiting if they had been caught back in the 1800s, they can perfectly legitimately be sold on ebay today. Just don't call them "counterfeits". Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
627 Posts |
Good question. I can see this going in a lot of different directions. My view is that they are legit. Back in the day when they were circulating, I think most people knew they were counterfeit, but used them anyway. "wink wink". But because of the shortage of "real" currency, these counterfiets were somewhat necessary to conduct day to day business. Today, there is no shortage of currency.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
As Sap mentioned, 'contemporary counterfeits' are desirable and collectable, and well recognized within the numismatic community.
Numerous tokens within the Nova Scotia series are of this venue, as with the Tiffin's and Bust and Harp series. Blacksmith and
evasion (Vexator's) were made to circumvent the authorities. 'Contemporary counterfeits' are die-struck. These are not to be
confused with crude cast forgeries which were also circulated during the same era.
doug
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Pillar of the Community
United States
999 Posts |
Counterfeits are generally thought of as copies of genuine articles with the intent to deceive people to think they are real.
Tokens had been popular ways to fight coin shortages in both the USA and Canada in the 1800's. They were never intended to make you think they were real coins, but were devices to facilitate trade. Often they were the same or similar size to their "real" counterpart but clearly marked as a token. While they might not have been legal in the strictest sense at the time they fulfilled a need and were usually tolerated by authorities for these reasons.
They were not legal tender, so a debt would not be discharged if the payee declined to accept it.
Since they are not copies of real coins they do not fit the description of counterfeits.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
627 Posts |
Blacksmith tokens I believe WERE meant to deceive the public. n9jig is correct in his discription and application of tokens of the day, however, blacksmith tokens were meant to deceive the public. They were not issued by banks or other institutions. They were manufactured in "back rooms" and "blacksmith shops". They were even manufactured to look old and worn out, so that they would not fall under scrutiny. That is why when you look at the grade of a blacksmith token it kind of doesn't make sense unless you know what a blacksmith token is. Take for instance this one being offered up at the next Geoffery Bell auction. http://www.icollector.com/Blacksmit...en_i17236306 Its graded F-12. A regular token/penny would grade POOR-1. That means this blacksmith token in mint state would "look" pretty worn. But that is the way it was made. Look at my previous post as to why I think they were allowed to circulate. |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2135 Posts |
I've not heard of blacksmith tokens before.
This looks like a normal though very worn Irish halfpenny.
What's the definition of a blacksmith token ?
Are all contemporary counterfeits, blacksmith tokens ?
Is there a reference site, please ?
Incidentally, I collect contemporary counterfeits if I see them at a reasonable price.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
627 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2135 Posts |
Thanks,
A very interesting article.
Do you know of any sellers, please ?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
627 Posts |
Check out the Geoff Bell auction. There is quite a few coming up for auction.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4227 Posts |
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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,604 |
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Posted 09/18/2013 6:55 pm
