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Bronze Postumus, A Sestertius?

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Dutchgulden's Avatar
Netherlands
1204 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  4:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Dutchgulden to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello,

I bought a cheap bronze of Postumus, 30mm but only 9grams!

I think its a sestertius but its extremely light to be a sesters.
The problem is that its to heavy to be a dupondius.
Any opinions?

Reference could be:

Postumus AE Sestertius. Lyons? 261 AD. IMP C POSTVMVS PF AVG, Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right / VICTORIA AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm; captive before
RIC 170?



Bronze-Postumus,-A-Sestertius?

Bronze-Postumus,-A-Sestertius?
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United States
3444 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well of course the reference is incorrect Jan !

Radiate bust means double sestertius ! I believe RIC 169 is the correct one but the reverse makes it difficult to pin down. Sear gives Cologne AD 261
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Dutchgulden's Avatar
Netherlands
1204 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dutchgulden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Youre right, I'm sorry :D Its an overstrike imo as well
Edited by Dutchgulden
08/18/2014 4:39 pm
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United States
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 Posted 08/18/2014  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmm
I do not see the overstrike but it would not surprise me at all. I saw one not too long ago that had been struck over a Faustina Jr AE. I wanted it ! But it went for big money and I had to let it go.

This is a very nice portrait and if you grabbed it for under $50 you did well !
I am assuming you did better than that as you referred to it as a "cheap bronze"
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Dutchgulden's Avatar
Netherlands
1204 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dutchgulden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I dont see it either but I think its a restrike over a very worn old bronze, which would explain the low weight.

Haha youre right, 36 dollards incl shipping. Its a keeper for me, thanks.
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pishpash's Avatar
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  4:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is very nice Dutch. I am still trying to improve on my tatty silvered Ant.
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Ben's Avatar
United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some have the term dupondius tied to them, but this is certianly a double sestertius. (I have a dup somewhere, its around 22mm I believe). Veyr good for $36 - a cheap good Postumus bust is not easy to come by, especially on Double Sestertii.

I have a Sestertius which is also AE30 from earlier in the reign - they got smaller and smaller as time went by. Look out for interesting reverse types too - mines got a 3d rendering of Salus.
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Postumus double sestertius are none to weigh over 15 grams. while the size may suggest that it is a sestertius I
'd be more inclined to believe it's a dupondius struck on a slightly larger flan. His dupondius are known to weigh less than 15 grams.
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 Posted 08/18/2014  8:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
David Sear states in his book that he is inclined to attribute almost all of the "dupondii" of Postumus as actually being reduced double Sestertii.
The period for this coin given as AD261 is smack in the middle of the near total collapse of the Roman economy and weights and diameters of base metal coins tend to be all over the place.
It has become my firm belief that the sestertius always was purely a prestige coin meant to impress the masses and was very expensive to produce. Postumus certainly tried and the appearance of these coins after an almost decade long absence must have impressed more than a few citizens (even if only over struck on earlier pieces which quite a few were) But as "bad money" inevitably chases out good, the effort was doomed from the start. As long as Gallienus was able to crank out his debased antoniniani, the good silver and large bronzes of Postumus were probably 'rat holed' away.
Which is good for us collectors !
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2014  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting, I don't have Sear's so I wasn't aware of that. So if I understand what you are saying there where no dupondii struck during his reign?
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 Posted 08/19/2014  08:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sear lists two types of Dupondius issued by Postumus but has inserted an opinion that he believes most of the smaller sized 'radiate' ae's were issued as reduced double Sestertii and/or are contemporary imitations (ie unofficial). The situation must have been very confusing to people at the time never mind us after 1,700 plus years.

My own opinion is that the appearance of these larger types must have had a big impression on the recipients. People accustomed to the debased and rather 'ragged' coins of Gallienus could only have been very impressed. But just as we will certainly keep a silver dime when found in our pocket change, issuing good money is doomed as long as the bad continues to to be issued. The good money just won't circulate ! Drastic reductions in size and weight would be necessary to get the coinage to do its "job".
And of course a primary purpose of the coins was to show the face of the emperor and to remind everybody just who was "buttering" their bread.
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Ben's Avatar
United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2014  11:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a cut down brass coin of Postumus with the bust style being that of the double sestertii, but small and quite thin. Perhaps thats the remains of a dupondius. THe other dupondius was a galley, but struck on a flan too big for an Ant and too small for a Sest.
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 Posted 08/19/2014  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Orichalcum had virtually ceased to be issued by the reign of Philip I. Later issues are classified as being bronze. As I mentioned once before the recycling of old coinage led to the 'evaporation' of the zinc content and a rise in the lead leading to a brittle alloy prone to fracturing. Obviously the production of 'brass' had dropped off considerably or else they would have still been using it. Too expensive ? Postumus certainly had access to the zinc mines of Britain.

I have noticed that the large ae's of Postumus have a 'relatively' high incidence of being struck on earlier issues.Especially it seems from the mid second century ..... I wonder from whence they came ? A coin of Postumus in orichalcum would almost certainly be an overstrike of an earlier dupondius.
You should show us this novelty Ben.
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Dutchgulden's Avatar
Netherlands
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 Posted 08/19/2014  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dutchgulden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
interesting posts, a lot to learn!
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Ben's Avatar
United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2014  5:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here you are Rufus. Perhaps its a particularly dirty billon, but the bust is certainly one from his larger issues. It came in a big lot that was cleaned by the finder with acid, had a lot of interesting things.

Bronze-Postumus,-A-Sestertius?

Reverse is blank, thickness isn't very impressive (about the same as a standard silver ant). AE20, cut down, using a much larger die.
Edited by Ben
08/19/2014 5:41 pm
Valued Member
United States
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 Posted 08/19/2014  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rasiel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with David Sear that these radiates were all almost certainly produced as double sestertii. The dupondius was by then an obsolete denomination and to make any sort of a case that they were in fact dupondii you would first need to find a laureate bronze of intermediate weight.

Ras
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