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 Replies: 82 / Views: 16,153 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
711 Posts |
Quote:What entity exactly should one assume the word 'they' refers to in the above statement? Is this some 3rd party illegal operation in China, or some TPG taken-for-granted as reputable but cutting side deals in the states, or some other yet-to-be-disclosed faction? This statement is somewhat nebulous and could cause litigious actions depending upon its unintended implication and who/what it affects etc. I'm not trying to stir things up with my above statements but instead only trying to become more educated in this complex issue. Depending upon which veritably accurate answer(s) to my questions surface, any credibility I once had in certain institutions could be severely undermined. In that instance I was working under the assumption that they outsource production of the slab blanks and was referring to the 3rd party manufacturer and/or its employees free lancing. Now that you mention it, it is always possible that one of the grading companies or its employees could be selling the slabs out the back door too. Who knows. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Neither NGC nor PCGS is selling slabs out the back door and comments like that do a disservice to new collectors reading these threads. ANACS wouldn't be either. You don't destroy your company for miniscule returns doing that not to mention the ethics of it. That's paranoia at its finest
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Valued Member
 United States
392 Posts |
Absolutely! I get it. Thanks. From my perspective, it seems like "the Chinese" are an awfully handy target whenever questionable coins/currency pop up. I know, to some extent, the bad reputation has been fully earned. But, we have members here on CCF who live in China, and it must be a constant source of frustration when they read such posts about "the Chinese."
Here, in the US, and everywhere else for that matter, we have no shortage of con-men (and women) who are quite happy, and even eager, to steal your money. As you've mentioned, I hope that some idiot at NGC/PCGS isn't selling slabs off the back dock. The only thing the TPGs have to sell is their reputation, and that is a very perishable commodity. I'm sure they (TPGs) realize how serious such a situation could be, and are doing everything possible to insure their integrity. Jack
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Pillar of the Community
United States
711 Posts |
I don't claim anything.
I do claim that it is much more common for manufactured parts to go out the back door than people realize. Much more common than counterfeiting.
Doesn't need to involve the company at all. Often it is an employee making some easy money on the side.
Edited by BuckeyeCoinGuy
11/27/2015 9:11 pm
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Valued Member
United States
392 Posts |
Buckeye - I know in my heart you are completely correct. It's a sad, but true fact. When my wife worked at Walmart, they caught an Assistant Manager dropping high end (for Walmart) electronics into the trash, dumping the trash in the dumpster, and having her friends swing by and dig them out. It was thousands and thousands of dollars in merchandise over a period of about 6-months. Without getting too political, there are many reasons why such practices are more common now, than, say, when I was young. In the South we used to have a saying, "A fish stinks from the head down." Jack |
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Rest in Peace
United States
7075 Posts |
It's been awhile since I checked this thread. I saw Jack's comment Quote:
Buddy - you have done an amazing job with hunting down and shining the light of truth on lots, and lots of fakes here on CCF. We all owe you a debt of gratitude. You've saved countless collectors from being cheated. On behalf of those you have helped, thank you. Jack
Wish I could take credit for doing so but I'm afraid I can't. I am simply way too unsure of myself to point out a fake coin. And now there are the fake slabs.....yikes! Anyway ... I have a lot of respect for all of you who have been at this hobby for decades and you still take the time to help the likes of me. It helps a lot to know that there are decent people who care about maitaining high standards. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
616 Posts |
I just reported an exceptional counterfeit I found on ebay to NGC today. Below is a copy of the email I sent. As a cautious buyer in a marketplace that has become saturated with obvious fake slabs that can easily be detected by seasoned collectors, this particular example is by far, the best "fake slab" I have ever seen! I use the NGC app on my iPhone to scan EVERY NGC encapsulated coin I intend to purchase before buying. If the coin is not found in the database, I do not buy it. If it is in the database, but lacks an image of the original slab, I usually pass on the coin, unless I'm familiar with the seller. However, after scanning this coin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Cook-I...AOSw-7RVH0Ye it read "ERROR - Unable to locate that coin." and the number it displayed in the Cert # box read: 4256059-001 instead of the actual number clearly visible on the slab, 4256060-002. So I manually entered the number on the slab and the the coin was indeed in the database, including a scan of the front and back of the slab. But something just didn't set well with me so I started to compare different areas of the label and almost gave up until I noticed several discrepancies within the barcode itself as shown in the image below.  Anyways, I thought I should bring this current counterfeit slab listing to your attention, as this particular seller has numerous questionable NGC slabs for sale along with completed listings of several different NGC slabbed coins that were sold with identical certification numbers. Your attention into this matter would be greatly appreciated! Joey Rains Sent from JDRMCB Coin's iPad |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4963 Posts |
There are also other minor discrepancies in the label. For instance, the A does not proper line up with the scale.
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Valued Member
United States
72 Posts |
What is an XRF scanner, how much do they cost, and how do they work to detect counterfeits?
Would this scanner have worked in this case with the coin encapsulated?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4963 Posts |
An XRF (X-Ray Fluorescence) scanner is a device which can be used to identify the composition of a sample, in this case the coin. They help detect counterfeits by determining the coin's exact composition to compare it to the composition of a real coin. They are not cheap- one of our members bought one a while back and said that $10,000 will buy one of the cheaper ones that doesn't work well. He paid $16,000 and change. I believe it still works for encapsulated coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3546 Posts |
Excellent detective work JDRMCB. I personally would never have drilled down to the spacing/alignment with respect to the bar code. I guess that's why many folks within this field of numismatics are classified as being very detailed in nature. I realize that only a few folks may benefit from this but I included a more blown up shot of your side-by-side of the slabs since sometimes certain devices do not enlarge efficiently. Finally, regarding XRF technology one of the reps I dealt with indicated that these diagnostic x-rays typically only penetrate 'efficiently' down through metallic substrates to a max of 3 - 4 mm: a thickness where 'most' counterfeiters stop plating with real gold for obvious reasons. This depth limitation would not apply to plastic or non-metallic materials. He added that XRF would probably not be a good fit for detecting tungsten-filled 24k gold bars, for instance, because of the tungsten's internally-positioned depth etc. In this case a reliable Craftsman drill would always be a good choice.  |
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Valued Member
United States
392 Posts |
Thanks immensely for the in-depth alert, JDRMCB. My FIRST question is what in h--- is NGC doing about this? If we can no longer trust what is written on the slabs, exactly what product do they have to sell? I understand "buy the coin, not the slab." The uncomfortable truth is that the errors you discovered would have been (and likely were) missed by many. They were very nearly missed by you. Thank Heaven for your doggedness.
We need to hear that NGC is aggressively pursuing these criminals, and that the justice system is levying severe penalties to discourage them. If they are being generated by foreign nations, why do we continue to allow business with them?
There are collectors among us, who might make a once-in-a-lifetime purchase of a very high end collectible, that, conceivably, couldn't recover financially from such a swindle!
I'd recommend that you forward your discovery to Dwight Manley's people to be included in their investigation (ref: OP). Jack
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Valued Member
United States
392 Posts |
Sorry for the second post. I just noticed that the Seller referenced in JDRMCB's post, changed his Seller ID in January of 2015. He was previously Selling under the name "bogda-ti." It's an odd name. I don't know if his previous Seller history can be researched, or not. But, it does beg the question - why the change? Under his current Seller name he has only 30 transactions, but does have a 100% positive feedback rating. Jack
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Pillar of the Community
United States
757 Posts |
I have an XRF and it has a gold plated detection setting. Here is a link if you really want to check it out. http://www.thermoscientific.com/con...2012Dec3.pdfEvery year the tech gets better and it's definitely the least intrusive method of testing. Is it 100% foolproof? No, but nothing really is. They are not cheap by any means, but if you have a use for it they are great. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5838 Posts |
They are the counterfeiters still having problem with the Bar Code system. In time, I think they will properly perfect that too.
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Posted 11/27/2015 4:40 pm
