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Extra Thick Letters And Notched Letters Are Double Dies?

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Pete2226's Avatar
United States
3330 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  08:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Glad you found the Community, Kevin. My situation is similar to yours - the closest LCS is 3 hours away! The last time I was in a coin shop was when I bought a Flying Eagle cent for $6 or $7 - I believe it was in the late 40s or early 50s.

This is a great forum!
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Rackster's Avatar
United States
4809 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Something else to keep in mind is that when coining methods changed new phenomenon popped up. Even when the experts went to the well (mint) for and explanation, they didn't receive much in the way of answers. So they were left to speculate a bit and surely there were differences of opinion between the experts. You'll even see that here in the forums every once in a while.

As has been noted, these folks have taken it upon themselves to document 'anomalies' and 'things' that broadened the hobby. Where there was very limited interest has grown to what it is now, through their contributions and through ours (folks who submit/discuss varieties and errors). And interest correlates with potential value. So we are benefitting; financially (perhaps in a small way) and interest (perhaps in a bigger way). Also, distinctions are useful to an extent. Attributing this-or-that to a doubled die versus a wavy step or trail is one way. But they are two labels for a distinct event. They are helpful in the sense that they provide information about the event. You can type a coin as one-or-the-other. Hardcore DD collectors may not care about Trails. The reverse is also true. Personally, I don't see this as a means to artificially grow the hobby or saturate/create a market. There's enough uniqueness with both to drive interest by themselves. Where it get's fuzzy to me is in the area of Machine Damaged coins (as an example). Here's were the uniqueness and the event to me doesn't warrant significant interest. Folks willing to sell those coins might fit what you describe in your original post. But they aren't making websites to attribute MD. And even with that said, there are folks out there who like the look of MD and like to collect the specimens. To-each-their-own. I have no objection to folks selling coins that people want, damaged or not (I only hope that they are clear to the seller what it is they are selling). No deception. And that's key here; the folks creating sites like Traildies or Coppercoins are not trying to deceive anyone. In fact, as information became more available over time, they've retracted listings and offered explanations. I think that's the hallmark of a credible site or reference.

Sorry for the longwinded response, but I just wanted to offer my support to those that are working to expand our hobby in appropriate ways and perhaps give you a nugget to consider. Good luck on the hunt Kevin!
Edited by Rackster
01/30/2016 10:39 am
Valued Member
United States
252 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kevin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you everyone and I wish the mint would let out more info than what they do and it is nice to have people that go and find things out and alot of what causes an error can be speculation I have a few odd ball coins that I wonder what happened to them to make them the way they look,and I didn't mean to make it like the experts are doing anything wrong,it is when you are in a position to influence alot of people I think if not all the experts can agree 100 percent on something that until they do the word possible double die or possible error should be used because when something is proven wrong and the value drops then it affects coin collecting.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  10:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The only problem with the last part of your statement is, that it will never happen. In some cases these experts do not like each other all that much. I would love it if there was only one standard numbering system, but we have CONECA, Copper Coins, Wexler, Breen, Crawford, Cherrypicker's Guide, and I am sure I missed a few. But they all ave there own numbering system.
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Rackster's Avatar
United States
4809 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's right seal. Getting 100% consensus isn't realistic. But we can hope for the majority to corroborate on a listing/idea.
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24154 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The experts do not always agree. There is no standard when observing these coins.


Hallelujah! Someone that knows what they're talking about actually talking sense. Some experts will try to shove down your throat that all this stuff is science (die varieties, errors) and there is absolutely no gray area. They swear something "is or isn't" and that's it. Yet two of these "science" guys will argue for weeks in a forum topic over what happened to a coin. Unless you were there when the coin was struck (or tooled, or squeezed in a vice, or smacked with a hammer, or dipped in acid, or soaked in cleaner, or stuck in the ground... I could go on), you don't know what happened.
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bobby, you forgot... "or run over by an industrial lawnmower"
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24154 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  12:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
YES! I've seen one of those!
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24154 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PMD, Post Mower Damage at Citizens Bank Park. There was a witness so we KNOW what happened to this one.

Extra-Thick-Letters-And-Notched-Letters-Are-Double-Dies?
Valued Member
United States
252 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kevin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a dime that looks like it was ran through a gear box,it has small cog indents on both sides but since I found it in circulation I can't say where it happened.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bobby, the witness was drunk so it does not count
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24154 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nope, stone sober 9AM the next morning after a Zac Brown Band concert. He was riding the mower.
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CoinMasters's Avatar
United States
5964 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2016  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm thinking 90 some percent of attributions is based in science. Knowing the minting processes is knowing the clues on the coins. The experts agree 90 some percent of the time. Numismatics would be in serious trouble without them. They do disagree occasionally, but that is true in all professions. When they do, I think it's prudent to find out why. That way, us laypersons can use our own brains for a change.
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BJ Neff's Avatar
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526 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2016  10:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BJ Neff to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to mention trail dies / way steps (one in the same thing) are now not considered doubled dies by any of the experts that I know. They are a separate anomaly type that is believe to be caused during the making of the die (hub). As to the exact cause, no one and that goes for the U. S. Mint knows how it happens

For general information, the earliest trail die was found on an 1869 coin from Uruguay, so they have been around for awhile!

BJ Neff
Edited by BJ Neff
02/01/2016 10:09 am
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CoinMasters's Avatar
United States
5964 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2016  11:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, they have been around a long time and are very different from each other. The Trail doesn't duplicate the design, it extends it. Trails are, and always have been made from horizontal movement of the die against the hub. The cause of the movement is where there is room for debate. With the advent of the single squeeze process, there are more and stronger TD's being manufactured, and while more DD's are being made, there are fewer strong DD's. The future is in TD's unless (as Mike Diamond has mentioned), the Mint decides to return to the old process. In that event, the price of the already manufactured TD's will skyrocket. Either way, the future looks good for Trail Dies. I read your book, BJ. I think 90 some percent of what's in it, is agreed upon by the experts.
Edited by CoinMasters
02/01/2016 11:02 pm
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