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Herennia Etruscilla - Does It Look Right ?

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Pillar of the Community

United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  3:00 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
This is an example of something that I saw just now on Facebook.
The coin looks beautiful
But I see something that does not look right.
I admit my limitations when it comes to ancient silver.
Does anyone else see something that makes them doubt ?



Herennia-Etruscilla---Does-It-Look-Right-?

I may simply be paranoid !
Well in fact I know I am but in this case am I ?
Valued Member
arnoldoe's Avatar
Canada
266 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add arnoldoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it looks genuine..
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it 'looks' genuine too !
But something about it does not seem quite right

I am holding back saying what

Comparison ?
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin looks genuine to me also. The bust and hair details are outstanding. I see a hint of silvering loss around the edge but that doesn't raise any red flags.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But it isn't the usual hair style is it ?
I mean it is not unknown but usually the style is very different.
I am probably being overly paranoid
But
I know of at least one dealer in my area that is becoming very leery of anything not "certified".
I will not ever do that to my coins.
But he is getting scared

And so am I !
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arnoldoe's Avatar
Canada
266 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add arnoldoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a similar one sold by Roma Numismatics in 2013

Herennia-Etruscilla---Does-It-Look-Right-?
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Athalbert's Avatar
Spain
629 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Athalbert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Probably same reverse die...
But very, very worn...
Edited by Athalbert
02/29/2016 5:36 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember this guy ?

Something about the lettering on the one you just posted made me think of it
The 'joker' who made the bearded Nero is talented
And as yet unidentified too
I assume he has been active doing something in his spare time

I am probably wrong to be so doubtful
But I get the nagging feeling that I need be

Herennia-Etruscilla---Does-It-Look-Right-?
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I might add that as we learned last year

CNG sold one of these bearded Nero's
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With cast fakes I look inside any peripheral edge cracks inside them, with high powered loupe looking for split metal distress.
Even with good quality pressure cast fakes, this type of metal distress cannot happen.

The reverse of the Herennina Etruscilla coin shows evidence of wear, but the actual textue of the surface at the high points seems to be undisturbed by wear. Need to confirm this by examination with a high powered loupe.
Edited by sel_69l
02/29/2016 5:55 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 02/29/2016  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I quite believe you on the cast fakes
But I am of the opinion that technology has progressed to the point that dies can be made with relative ease
and fake coins struck the old fashioned way.
I find it very disturbing
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 02/29/2016  11:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FR: I like your cautious attitude.

Should be a contributing factor in a decision with any ancient consirered for purchase.
That is despite the fact that the vast majority of ancient coins available for sale are geniune.

I have only been 'stung' once with an ancient coin, but that experience taught me a deep lesson.
Since then, I have made an effort to learn all I can about fake coins. I have some very good numismatic literature references on the subject.
Although he is into milled and modern coins, I read all that Swamperbob has to write on the subject as well.
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DavidUK's Avatar
United Kingdom
2624 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2016  05:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't like it. I can give two reasons.

Firstly I am not an expert on Roman coins, but I just don't like the style.

Secondly and more worthy of mention is the mark at 9 o'clock obverse. It looks like it is imitating a split but is not really a genuine split. I just scrolled up and saw Sel's mention of metal distress.... I would wager that if inspected the marks at the edge don't display any such thing.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 03/01/2016  11:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but I just don't like the style


I am inclined to agree

First I would like to clarify a few things.
Nearly thirty years ago I came to the conclusion that I would more than likely never be able to purchase all the coins I would like to in my lifetime. I had been somewhat focused on 1st & 2nd century bronze for the previous ten years (mostly the Roman As and Dupondius) so I was slowly coming around to my focus without any help.
While attending a Boston International coin show I went to lunch with my dealer friend 'Lou'. Over the years Lou had accommodated my passions by tempting me with high quality bronzes and giving me generous terms !
Usually a nice price combined with the old "send me $100 a month for X months. Hard for a poor boy to resist !
Over a delicious Greek style feast at a nearby restaurant Lou (at that time affiliated with Munzen Medallion) told me about his recent European travels and especially his time in Greece.
Lou told me he had lunch in Athens with a very famous gentleman who had only recently re emerged after several years of confinement. You rip off small collector types you get promoted. You rip off big European auction houses they send you to prison !
I have long forgotten the mans name but not his reputation !
Over lunch he had showed Lou some 'dynamite' Greek silver coins. Some were quite genuine ..... some had been knocked off in the previous months. Lou told me he was astounded. The quality of the fakes was so high that he needed to be told which was which !

Now this was around 1988 and the sorts of coins Lou was talking about were not the type of material I worried about too much. Ten thousand dollar tetradrachms were not my area of concern.
Lower priced bronzes and other coins (under $100) were not overly suspect when it came to fakes. Fakes there were but they weren't too hard to spot and I was becoming very comfortable with bronze coins. Added comfort was learning around this time that bronze is difficult to cast (copper impossible !).
So while I use the term "scared away" it was all part of my evolution as a collector. Yeah I was scared but not from actually getting burned !

Now fast forward .....
Last year I made a new friend at the local coin "shoppe". A foreign student from Vietnam who invited me into his Facebook coin collecting group.
I lasted around 2 days before I got tossed out !
Some people can get very offended when you dare question the Caesar denarius they are bragging about buying from a very reliable detector fellow who sells them for $75 apiece. He finds them all the time too !
What I had found was a virtual world with fake coins being sold to the faithful (they don't want to hear my heresy) by a couple of sharks !

So I am still seeing Facebook groups with people showing off some real museum quality stuff ! I have seen more XF gems in the past two years than I have seen in my lifetime !

Now about that Nero
Recently a comment was made by a member (concerning Caracalla looking a bit like Karl Marx) that why would a forger do the beard when everything else looks so good ?
It doesn't make much sense does it. But not understanding the motive does not mean there isn't one in there ........ somewhere.
So why did the 'joker' put the beard on Nero ? darn good fake outside the beard.
Hypothesis

Perhaps these are intended to be found out. Not immediately but eventually. Sort of a diversion or if you will something to makes us feel like we can spot the fakes.
When I saw the 'ant' of Herennia the first thing I thought was
Facebook = fake
I prejudged it. Then looked for "observations"

I thought see seemed too good looking
Say what you will but many of the females on mid 3rd century 'ants' are frightening !
Next the hair. It seems too crisp and sharp. As mentioned by another high points tend toward wear. Besides it is not the typical 'corn row' type hair I associate with Herennia. I see a few examples of the wavy line hair but most are more complicated.
So an XF gem 'ant' with an uncommon hair style being shown off on Facebook ( which alone makes me dubious )

I may be just getting old and overly paranoid but I get the feeling that while most of the material for sale is genuine, a not inconsiderable amount of material is appearing on the Internet in closed Facebook groups. These groups require an invitation and are quick to boot anyone who asks annoying questions.

It is almost cult like.
These coins are real because I say they are and anyone who doubts get out !
So who wants a nice EID MAR of Brutus !
Anyone .......... anyone ?

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lrbguy's Avatar
United States
949 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2016  10:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Of the two great "sins" of collecting; accepting bad as good vs condemning good as bad, I submit that the second is far worse than the first, for it carries with it the risk that a good coin might be destroyed. In order to avoid the latter, let us ask how we might protect ourselves against the former.

As FR has pointed out, there is always a possibility that some kind of technique or technology might be developed to fake a coin. And it is a foregone conclusion that if a coin may be faked, there is sure to be someone who will attempt to capitalize on that. This cannot be denied. So, as cautious buyers we rightly must hold the authenticity of a coin in question, and act on our convictions about it one way or the other. That, I think we all agree, is prudent.

However,

when confronted with an unknown coin, as we consider its authenticity we also need to consider the probability that it has been faked. There are forces active today that would like nothing better than to drive people away from collecting ancients. What better tool than casting doubt about the ability to establish authenticity?

I submit that it is not reasonable to suppose that all ancients are suspect unless each can be PROVED genuine, for no such test can exist to remove all possible doubt that a coin has been faked by tools of modern technology. But it would be paranoia in the true sense to assume that all ancients on the market are probably fakes and therefore to be avoided.

To avoid the kind of impasse that has driven FR away from Roman silver, let me submit that as a practical matter the only coins that can unequivocally be established as fakes are those that have been recognized and documented as such. The rest are candidates for authenticity and may be assumed as such until proven otherwise.

That's as good as any collectibles hobby can do, coins, stamps, railroad spikes or whatever. Arguments can be made and refuted. Nothing is ironclad, so the collector must of necessity evaluate the risks and act according to the strength of their convictions. The more informed a collector is about the material one collects, the more confidence that the odds are weighted in his/her favor. At bottom, that is really what differentiates the skilled collectors from the unskilled.

Assuming you have the requisite skills to research a coin, it must still be admitted that if you are looking for ironclad proof in your hobby, and cannot live with any level of uncertainty, no matter how small, then you need to be selective and limit your involvement with ancient coins. In that case, only buy where a return guarantee is given.
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