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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,785 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5672 Posts |
This is an intriguing blog article that makes a cogent argument that there is an upward migration of TPG grades for the highest quality coins because of continual resubmissions. Seems like it could be an inevitable outcome over time. http://www.tbnumismatics.com/will-t...rgraded.html
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Valued Member
59 Posts |
In case you missed it, over the last four decades there has been a "grade migration" upward for ALL COINS. Much of this CAUSED by the "evolving" standards of the TPGS's.
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
Both PCGS and NGC have made one significant change in the last two years. Before that time they were ignoring some technical grading specifics in favor of market grading. They often allowed cleaned coins, especially for the early type, to make it into righteous holders without mention of the cleaning.
They have both tightened up on that. It is not uncommon for cracked slabs to come back with improper cleaning that were not previously details graded.
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
5672 Posts |
Good points. But for coins that are problem-free, expensive, high MS coins, it does seem that the ability to crack out and resubmit coins to try for a higher grade will tend to raise the grades for those coins over time. Guess that's another reason to buy the coin, not the slab.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5825 Posts |
Coin World has also been having articles on "gradeflation". They point out that the TPG's have not been adhering to the ANA Grading Standards.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4592 Posts |
The number of unslabbed coins of a reasonable quality such as to deserve slabbing is finite (decreasing as some are unfortunately lost through various events).
In order to keep the business going (or growing), you have to have a steady influx of transactions.
This is what drives the modern label fantasy. This one I understand but don't participate in. Creating markets through artificial scarcity and (imaginary) differentiation goes back 100s if not 1000s of years. Tulip bulbs come to mind.
And this is the force that also drives gradeflation: Resubmit it for a new fee, get a higher grade and magically the coin is 'worth' more. Everybody wins. Except the poor SOB who buys the now technically overgraded slab when the time comes to sell it.
One doesn't have to look far into our own history to see the results. There was a time that PCI was considered a legitimate slabbing company. Then they hopped on the market grading bandwagon and today are a joke. Even though the oldest PCI slabbed coins are actually pretty honestly graded.
What people miss is that when you cheapen the brand, you cheapen ALL uses of the brand. Especially if you (through plan or accident) erase the differentiations.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
5672 Posts |
If a coin gets slabbed with a higher grade than it deserves, it's not coming out of that slab. So eventually, more and more coins will appear in overgraded slabs. Add to that the loosening of grading standards. Will that lead to PCGS and NGC losing their reputations as high quality TPGs and diminish the premiums placed on their slabs?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4592 Posts |
Gresham's law - bad money drives out good. Easily extends to bad anything drives out good.
Unfortunately, what will happen is that one (or both of them) will (eventually) announce a scientifically derived new grading scheme as a vast improvement on the old one.
The side effect will be (cue sad face) that all existing slabs (including our own) are obsolete and so must - to be current - be graded. As long as there is no easy mapping from old to new, it will allow them to hide the flaws.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Edited by BStrauss3 04/07/2016 09:48 am
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Valued Member
United States
136 Posts |
Since NGC recently changed their label on the slabs I have observed that some coins that are of high quality and deserve an appropriate grade, seem to be graded far below of what the coins would deserve it does not seem to happen with lower end coins which still grade well but when it gets to the 65... 66 range and up it seems like its a game of chance almost at least this was my most recent experience. And now they started to give out a lot of UNC Details with designations like Damaged.... Rev. Scratched... Improperly Cleaned... Hairlines.... etc.... on coins that seem perfectly gradable. Some nicer mid range MS coins suddenly get an AU-58.
Has anybody else observed this?
I have a submission of higher end coins but I am holding back simply because of my last experience and I was wondering if I should not switch to PCGS
Edited by GEKO 04/20/2016 3:58 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:They point out that the TPG's have not been adhering to the ANA Grading Standards. They never have. And even the ANA standards are not the same as what they were back when the first edition of the book came out.
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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts |
Quote: In order to keep the business going (or growing), you have to have a steady influx of transactions. Do not want to say it too loudly, but it feels like it is just a matter of time until some TPG announces that they are going to start grading on a fractional Sheldon scale. "Your MS 65 blah, blah, blah? If it regrades as MS 65.6 it is worth $200 more! Send it in for regrading, today!"
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
Quote:Do not want to say it too loudly, but it feels like it is just a matter of time until some TPG announces that they are going to start grading on a fractional Sheldon scale. "Your MS 65 blah, blah, blah? If it regrades as MS 65.6 it is worth $200 more! Send it in for regrading, today!" Already happening. I just bought a Peace dollar PCGS MS64+ CAC is making a business out of it.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5241 Posts |
Quote:Do not want to say it too loudly, but it feels like it is just a matter of time until some TPG announces that they are going to start grading on a fractional Sheldon scale I read an article written when the Sheldon scale was first starting out. The author (the late Abe Kosoff) thought that +- a few points was a sign of consistency among graders. I think that is probably about as accurate as it can be done. I cannot imagine the absurdity of expecting consistency to within one tenth of a point, yet I too am almost expecting it to come.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
[quote]Unfortunately, what will happen is that one (or both of them) will (eventually) announce a scientifically derived new grading scheme as a vast improvement on the old one.[/quote} The tech to make a totally machine/computer graded coin system was available in the mid 90s at least. The scanning machine in a quality control department of a plastics plant I was in for awhile had a totally automated machine that you pout a part on and it made a scan/assessment down to thousands of an inch.
I believe it was in a thread on this forum I read PCGS poured (I think the figure) was over 100K into developing a system - then is suddenly just stopped.
I theorize that since the tech was available 20 years ago, they looked ahead and saw exactly what is quoted above as a way of keeping themselves in business a good long time into the future.
And if you think about it, even the facial recognition software in a lot of people's phones adds to showing the computer graded system is more than viable now.
The human element, though, will still be in place though as it will still be a human who decides what level of accuracy the machine will use (we don;t need thousandths of an inch with coins). But... it will also guarantee a whole new generation of collectors can also have be guaranteed to want their services, b/c the TPGs will always be able to claim (after everything has been re-reslabbed from the initial compu-grade system), that their level of accuracy has been increased and "how can you sleep without knowing the TRUE grade of you coin?"
The coins are not the issue. The money they make is - the TPGS have a good future in front of them as long as they can keep convincing people that every gimmick TPGs come up with is essential. IMO, when they emerged, it was b/c they had found a way to make it sound as if they were a necessary part of the hobby, and they keep "gimmicking" their way along.
P.T. Barnum was dead on. And we all fall for it at some time in our lives. It is human nature.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,785 |
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