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Ancients That Were Never "Lost"

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Finn235's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 04/29/2016  4:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I was thinking about this after reading the other article about the half-ton buried cache of Roman coins...

Every Roman coin I have ever seen has been found--buried in the ground, in a well, in the walls of an ancient house, etc. In order to be found, it has to be lost first--abandoned, misplaced, or simply cast aside. There are many reasons for this, which we won't go into here.

My question is, is there a single certifiable example of a Roman coin that was never lost? E.g. it remained in circulation until it was snatched up by an ancient coin collector, and then passed on through inheritance or plunder continuously until the present day? Is there a known example of such a coin that has never not had an owner?
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echizento's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 04/29/2016  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting question which I don't think we would ever be able to come up with an answer for. I've read somewhere that Augustus collected old coins but I have not heard of anything that may have belonged to him.
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 04/29/2016  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes, an interesting question indeed. What would even constitute proof? The trail of most things ran cold from the fall of the "western" roman empire until the middle ages. If the trail of the line of kings ran out, then what chance does the trail of a small item like a coin to be preserved?

Perhaps there would be better odds of finding such a trail via the Byzantine empire.
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Russian Federation
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 Posted 04/29/2016  7:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think there are any known ancient (pre-medieval) objects that were "never lost" in this sense, though there are a few that are suspected to be (such as some Roman gems).

As oriole quite correctly said, "The trail of most things ran cold from the fall of the "western" roman empire until the middle ages." Though I don't think there are any known coins (Roman or otherwise) with known (non-buried) provenance even to the medieval period (some other Roman objects do have provenances way back to the 10th century or so).

Actually, that gives a good question: what is the oldest known coin that "has never not had an owner"? (Preferably with a provenance that isn't "same museum collection since being donated there from the mint", or something similar; it is debatable whether a piece that stayed for a long time in a museum collection could be not called "cast aside" anyway.)
The oldest I can think of is the Weinberg 1794 Half Cent (passed from generation to generation in a Swiss family until bought by Weinberg in the 1970s). There is probably something much older. (Ever since I've heard of the 1794 Half Cent story, I wondered if there were any families that kept a heirloom coin from the Middle Ages, or longer.)


EDIT: apparently the Farnese Cup has a plausible-sounding provenance all the way to antiquity. So the "any objects" part is wrong. Still, for coins, it's a lot less likely.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 04/29/2016  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No. Every single ancient coin in collections today was dug up out of the ground sometime in the last 1000 years. You have to remember, Dark Age Europe was not a time when people cared about the finer things in life. Even the kings during the Dark Ages would have seen an ancient Roman coin as just another piece of bullion. There is a record of a vast hoard of Roman silver coins found in the territory of a mediaeval Italian prince. The prince had the whole hoard melted down.

While there are ancient records of certain people "collecting coins" (such as the mention of the antquarianism of Augustus in Suetonius) and there is strong but indirect evidence that some kind of "Imperial coin collection" must have existed during the Roman Imperial period which celators could access and copy, none of these ancient coin collections have survived intact as collections and no individual coin has a provenance which can be traced back to such a collection. Coin collecting in the modern sense began during the Renaissance, particularly when it was given a positive review by Petrarch as being something which any prince interested in history should be involved with. The oldest coin collections in the world date to this time (around the 1300s), including the Vatican collection (assembled by various mediaeval Popes) and the collections of several royal houses (some of which now belong to their respective national governments).

Some coin hoards have been discovered that show clear signs of being more than simple random accumulations of coins from circulation, which indicate that that particular hoard might have been somebody's "coin collection". But these, too, have had to be dug up, with no clear chain of ownership and certainly no preserved knowledge of whoever it was that originally assembled the collection.

Now, the history of coin collecting is older and stronger in China; there may be some collections older than 1000 years over there. I'm not familiar enough with the scene there to comment. But in the West, the Dark Ages were simply too long and too dark to allow for such a luxury.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Athalbert's Avatar
Spain
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 Posted 04/29/2016  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Athalbert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In several places of Spain ancient roman coins remained in circulation till our last civil war (1936-1939)...
the large coins (tetrachy follis) were used as "Perras gordas" ("fat she-dogs", a popular nickname of the 10 cents coins), while the medium ones were used as "Perras chicas" ("Small she-dogs", the nickname of the 5 cents).
This fact is well documented by several spanish numismatics and I have seen one coin box with two roman coins mixed among several copper coins...
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 Posted 04/29/2016  10:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In several places of Spain ancient roman coins remained in circulation till our last civil war (1936-1939)...
the large coins (tetrachy follis) were used as "Perras gordas" ("fat she-dogs", a popular nickname of the 10 cents coins), while the medium ones were used as "Perras chicas" ("Small she-dogs", the nickname of the 5 cents).
This fact is well documented by several spanish numismatics and I have seen one coin box with two roman coins mixed among several copper coins...

That just means that someone found a big enough hoard to be worth using it as circulating money, during a shortage of regular circulating money.
A Roman coin actually circulating for anywhere near as long would have been worn unrecognizably smooth (I'm not aware of any examples of coins circulating continuously for more than 250 years or so, and the 250-year ones are circles of metal with only the barest hint of design; of course it would have been quite hard to identify any that circulated longer).

It is vaguely similar to the well-documented example of late 1st century Roman coins being reused in the 5th century (by some Germanic tribe, can't recall which one).
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 04/29/2016  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, ancient coins have been "recirculated" in more modern times - most notably, ancient Roman dupondii and sestertii dug up in Britain during the copper coinage shortage of the late 1700s would be cleaned up and pressed into circulation as halfpennies and pennies. But again, this is after a gap of a thousand years or more, buried in the ground. There's no way a bronze coin can survive in continuous circulation for more than a couple of centuries and still be recognizable as a coin.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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chuy1530's Avatar
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 Posted 04/29/2016  11:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuy1530 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would think that a few coins would've wound up in some church or something prior to the 1000s and been held by them for one reason or another until now, but I've never been able to find an example of it.
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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 04/30/2016  02:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My thinking is that I can understand hoards of precious coins, or dumps of bronze coins that were too worn to use. What amazes me is the fact that every single stater, tetradrachm, aureus, solidus etc was "lost". These are pricy coins today, but would have probably had more purchasing power 2,000 years ago than they are worth today.

Or maybe what we have left today is something like 1-5% of what ever existed, and the rest were simply melted down by the Vandals?
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Bacchus2's Avatar
United Kingdom
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 Posted 04/30/2016  03:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What amazes me is the fact that every single stater, tetradrachm, aureus, solidus etc was "lost". These are pricy coins today, but would have probably had more purchasing power 2,000 years ago than they are worth today


A lot of them weren't "lost" in the sense that someone dropped it but they buried with the intention of recovery. There were no banks as we understand them and with wars and general upheavals it was really the safest thing to do.
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lrbguy's Avatar
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 Posted 04/30/2016  1:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One kind of place that a smattering of ancient coins might have survived as relics even through the dark ages is in the libraries of old monasteries. I have never heard of anything like that, but I have not gone looking for that information either. But in the mid-19th century the library of St. Catherines in the Sinai Peninsula was the findspot of a Bible Codex from the fourth century (Codex Sinaiticus) and until Tischendorf came along no one had any inkling that such a thing could have survived so long. It had been holed up in a walled off portion of the library that had been reopened about the time of his visit. Monks were using leaves from the book as kindling, so the timing was everything.

So who knows what other serendipitous discoveries are sequestered in some cave or whatever! That said, however, I tend to agree with Sap that the drive to collect things Roman fell on hard times during the Dark Ages. Perhaps the bank vaults of the financiers of Renaissance and late pre-Renaissance Europe and Asia might hold surprises, but who would know?
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Archraz's Avatar
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3499 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2016  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yes, ancient coins have been "recirculated" in more modern times - most notably, ancient Roman dupondii and sestertii dug up in Britain during the copper coinage shortage of the late 1700s would be cleaned up and pressed into circulation as halfpennies and pennies. But again, this is after a gap of a thousand years or more, buried in the ground. There's no way a bronze coin can survive in continuous circulation for more than a couple of centuries and still be recognizable as a coin.


Sap- Wow! that is amazing! What is your source on this? Has there been scholarly or other literature published on this? I would love to read it.
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Athalbert's Avatar
Spain
629 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2016  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Athalbert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sometimes you can find roman coins counterstamped in the reigns of Philip III and Philip IV of Spain like maravedis coins...
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Archraz's Avatar
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 Posted 04/30/2016  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Athalbert- Do you have any picture of such coins? I've seen counterstruck maravedis coins, but never Ancient Romans struck with a denomination in maradevis.
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 Posted 05/01/2016  04:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I distinctly recall reading that western travelers in Afghanistan (early 20th century) were surprised to find well worn drachms of Alexander circulating in the market places.
Whether they had spent that entire period above ground is in a sense a question without meaning.
People did not have banks or safety deposit boxes. The only "safe" place to deposit ones wealth was to bury it someplace.
I believe it is safe to assume that all ancient coins were at some point below ground. Whether they were ever lost is impossible to gage.
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