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 Replies: 31 / Views: 9,665 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Finally took the plunge and bought one raw from one of those "estate liquidation" ebay stores. Here's the coin: Natural Light   With Flash   Closeups through my loupe Dragon face/claw/orb  Scales/spines  Beads/denticles  Sun  Rays/Beads/Leaves  Rope/Denticles  Chrysanthemum/Paulownia  Reeds  Reeds, compared to a 1912 yen from a more established seller  Weight is 27.03g / 417.4 grain, compared to theoretical 26.9568 g / 416.0 grains. 0.073 grams / 1.4 grains over weight. I think this is within reasonable tolerance? The fields are smooth and semi-reflective, the details are crisp and lively. My only concern is that the reeds do not angle down toward the rim as much as I would expect, leading to a bit of an "edge" feeling on the rim of the coin. This is either a slightly over-weight original made by people learning to adapt to modern coin technology after producing hammered coins, or an extremely sophisticated modern forgery. Thoughts? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts |
Since you asked for thoughts here are two of mine:
1) If it was my coin, I'd verify silver by a few different methods, and if good probably chalk up any uncertainties to variations the coining process.
2) Once you begin to magnify coins and see them with much larger details instead of the coin in hand, it's easy to wonder about some of the things you see.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11951 Posts |
No expert ... bit I am curious what the experts will say.
First impression .. the coin spent some time in a folder.
Obverse and reverse have different toning.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2403 Posts |
Have no idea if real or not.
Just wanted to compliment you on the pictures taken through your loupe. Very clear and hard to do. Well done.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
The best way to protect against counterfeits is to know what a coin is "supposed" to look like. I don't kniw enough in that regard to give you a good answer, but I trust you have studied these enough to get a good idea.
But is the reverse supposed to have a bulge like that?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6130 Posts |
Thanks montcollector!
@Type, what bulge are you seeing? The coin "feels" right in hand, except for the less rounded reeds leading to an almost sharp edge feeling. The dragon is in lower relief, but the Japanese mint experimented with at least three different dragon designs between 1870-71.
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Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
509 Posts |
I have a couple concerns. 1: This coin is what I would consider a 'counterfeit until proven otherwise' coin. I have seen them sell in bulk for less than 25c each. I would put the odds of getting a counterfeit at least 99.9%. So you are starting from a position of assuming counterfeit and having to prove otherwise. 2. I would not buy an uncertified example from ebay. If I were to do so I would immediately send it for certification at one of the reputable companies. The downside is not only the expense but how much time it takes. By the time you send your coin in and get an opinion you may be out of the window to get a refund from ebay, paypal, or your credit card company. Even if you are not interested in getting it certified now, you will have to deal with the questions when you sell. 3. Being sold as an estate isn't a plus. Unless the seller or the estate has a reputation for rare and valuable Asian collectibles I'd actually consider an estate sale a negative. 4. You haven't noted if you've done other tests besides weight. You can test for magnetism or try specific gravity or the tissue test. 5. When I look at a 1 yen coin I look at the rim, the denticles, and the inner circle. And I am an amateur. Many more knowledgeable collectors can spot counterfeits based on details of the calligraphy or dragon. In this coin I am concerned about the rim being variable thickness and the rim and denticles being worn or damaged in certain areas. These aren't red flags but going back to point one and two I wouldn't bid on it. I don't mean to rain on your parade and I hope it works out to be genuine. But you asked for opinions and those are mine. Good luck. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I actually own an example of the 1870 Yen that came from an old estate. In my case, I got the entire collection directly from where it was discovered in the attic space of a barn. It came in the middle of a rat's nest. I made the purchase on total speculation because I saw the original nest. Some of the coins were in horrendous shape while others looked like they had been placed in the attic decades ago. Most coins needed conservation and the filth was everywhere. The 1870 was the prize of the collection - it was graded MS 62 by NGC. Regarding this coin I have some reservations - not based on the details of the face dies but based on the appearance of the raised rim and the edge reeds. The raised rim is wide possibly wider than expected by a fraction of a mm. Also visible is an arc in the raised rim which looks like either a slightly out of alignment collar or a shrinkage adjustment made for a transfer impression done using a plastic that shrank on drying. I can not be certain which. The reeds however have a more suspicious appearance. I have discussed many times the use of a ring die to edge numismatic forgeries made by centrifugal casting. The ring die leaves clues - split tailed reeds being one and sharp often raised corners on the edge that feel sharp. The reflection of the edge of your coin appears to show split tails on several reeds and even a seam in the center of the raised reed which is typical of the traces left by ring dies.  I would suggest grading is needed. Try to explain to the seller AND contact PayPal as well to see if either or both will grant permission for you to make the submission to NGC and let NGC be the final arbiter. If the dealer is honest he should not object - if he fights back - GET A REFUND NOW. Edited by swamperbob
08/07/2016 01:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
This coin is what I would consider a 'counterfeit until proven otherwise' coin.  That's absolutely the correct attitude to take with regard to the likes of this. I'd further remark that lots of estates contain fakes - even if the stuff was acquired many years ago. Counterfeiting is nothing new. The toatality of the circumstances and the savvy of the departed collector need to be taken into account - information that is utterly lacking with a purchase from an "estate" via ebay. Besides the assessment of the reeding that swamperbob provides, my first impression from the closeup shots (which are indeed excellent work) is that there are minute cavities & raised features that suggest it's a casting. Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
08/07/2016 11:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Breaking out the big guns for 60x magnification of the reeding:    I really appreciate all the help; this is the first time I have bought a coin on this price scale, and I'm just not used to what to look for on coins that warrant fakes in good silver with extremely sophisticated dies. Unless these pictures change anything, I think I am going to play things safe and bite $10 for an insured return, rather than $40 for grading if confidence is less than 75% that this is real. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
I think I am going to play things safe and bite $10 for an insured return, rather than $40 for grading I think that's playing it smart. Quote:
...and I'm just not used to what to look for on coins that warrant fakes in good silver with extremely sophisticated dies. I can see why this coin tempted you. If it is a casting, it's a high grade one with an excellent rendition of fine details. And you're absolutely correct in recognizing that with the numismatic value of genuine examples, the counterfeiter might not have skimped on the composition to make it even less detectable as a forgery. Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
08/07/2016 11:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
At this point of time I'm leaning towards genuine. Bear in mind that 1870 was the first year machine struck coins were first issued in Japan and are known for slightly less perfect compared to the later issued silver yen coins. Most certainly there were teething issues and hence this was the only type to be issued. No silver yen coins were issued until 1874 - I'm certain it took a few years to sort out a number of issues.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I think getting it graded is the safest route - simply assuming it is real could result in a big surprise later and the loss of all of the money. Assuming it is a forgery and immediately returning the coin without knowing for certain would bother me. I would want to know. In the past, I have made deals with ebay seller. I have agreed to pay for certification UP FRONT. If the coin was returned as genuine I would eat the costs and keep the coin. If the coin was judged a forgery than the seller would reimburse the cost of the coin and the grading costs. Any reputable seller should stand behind what he sells with a warrantee that it is NOT a numismatic forgery. Regarding the edge - the edge on my example had very squared off edges on the reeds. I believe that is typical of genuine examples. The feature that bothered me has not changed, some of the ends look like split tail reeds. In a collared strike they should NOT appear. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Do the genuine examples feel sharp? This coin has apparently been dropped on a hard surface a few times, resulting in numerous dings and flattened parts of some of the reeds. Most of the reeds are very squarish, but do not have split tails.
My 10, 20, and 50 sen from this year are not shining examples of reeding, but don't feel sharp like this one does.
Being nearly one and a half grains over weight doesn't sit well with me either.
At this point, I am still leaning towards just returning the coin... I have generally not had good experiences trying to get my money refunded when a seller is non-cooperative. I didn't get that great of a deal for it, and nearly $50 for grading would push it over the edge into a not so good deal. I could probably find a comparable example that is either certified or from a more reputable seller if I am patient enough.
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Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts |
I saw the auction. Personally I think you paid too much, unless you like the look of the coin as it is. It is sort of high grade but lots of nicks, and those green spots. Does it have cartwheel luster?
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Replies: 31 / Views: 9,665 |
Posted 08/05/2016 2:10 pm
