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 Replies: 94 / Views: 19,144 |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5594 Posts |
Interesting .. thanks, Roger.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
With the right equipment, important details do come up..
Nice work..
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
You see, there's always a way to detect a counterfeit.
I remember back in the late 1970's when Cubic Zirconium entered the diamond market and everyone was panicking over how in blazes will we be able to tell the difference between CZ and diamond.
Turns out like the above example, there is a definite clue to look for.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I also noticed the horizontal lines, but not knowing much about these cents I assumed it was some kind of "woodie" effect on the planchet.
But let me try to confirm my understanding - they're making planchets with the exact specifications and composition of the original coins? And then laser etching dies, presumably for a bunch of different large cent counterfeits with the same planchet specs?
I'm curious how these enter the market, because it seems like they would cost a lot more to manufacture/sell than those $2 fakes on the no-no site.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5594 Posts |
Actually, they take a real coin (or 2 coins to get both sides set up for the transfer)and CADCAM .. computer aided design and manufacture. They get a computer image of all details of the coin and then transfer and feed it to a laser machine that cuts the dies. That's how they get things so exact. For almost every copy or fake out there, there is a real coin made from real dies that they have made a laser copy of. But there are some things in the design that somewhat 'fools" the computer and laser .. age wrinkles around the eyes, frown or smile lines, the recess at the bridge of the nose and between the eyes, and around the ears. They also get some of the markers wrong when matching the Obv & Rev. Computers are a fakers best friend.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Thanks. My point though is that they're also making planchets that match. Must be an expensive operation. As for my question about entering the market, sure, there is probably a band of sellers on auction sites that move a few thousand dollars here and there, constantly getting busted and popping up again, but I'm just trying to get a feel for how they can make any real money at this considering how much this must cost to set up and manufacture. I guess maybe it only grabs our attention when a TPG certifies one as genuine. Just seems like they'd have to move dozens or hundreds of 1891 LLSDs for it to be worth it, and the market would notice. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1461 Posts |
I've resurrected this thread since I feel that it is important to the coin community as a whole to continue the conversation. Let me preface that the continuation of this thread is in no way intended to be critical or meant to intentionally reflect poorly on any TPG. I'm simply presenting facts and results. The coin has made it's way back to ICCS (On Brian's request) with the following information. 1. It was sent in the PCGS body bag and ICCS was made aware of PCGS' opinion. 2. ICCS was provided with Roger's XRF results 3. Detailed sizing was provided for the record (this is something that ICCS can obviously do) 4. ICCS was provided with Rob Turner's input with respect to die pairs and the inconsistency of them specific to this coin as well as his opinion. The coin spent a significant amount of time at ICCS and was returned to me as this...This obviously has some implications. So where do we go from here?   |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
I am completely lost as to what ICCS is doing. The implications are, It means that some counterfeits are so good that they, ICCS, don't recognize them as counterfeit. I'd say the implications should be big for ICCS.
It also implies that they ignored the work done by spp, whom iscolated the tell on the coin, the die polishing marks that run at a inconsistent angle across devices including the surface.
I wonder if they'd like you to resubmit the 1914 mule dime with Edward on it again- that originated from the same seller.
Edited by Alan
05/11/2017 5:54 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2843 Posts |
Sounds crazy- can you confirm, is there any chance that procedural technicalities prevented the PCGS opinion from actually reaching the graders?
Essentially, I am asking if ICCS overtly ignored PCGS's opinion or is there a chance that they were unaware?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
BigSilver. See above. ICCS is aware.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Is it typical in this scenario for ICCS to give it the same certification number? At least they fixed the date, I guess.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Quote:
I am completely lost as to what ICCS is doing  |
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Moderator
 Canada
10463 Posts |
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Valued Member
Canada
395 Posts |
Certainly not something I was expecting. Very questionable move by ICCS.
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Pillar of the Community
Taiwan
606 Posts |
TheCoinHunter: Was Brian gracious enough to give you a call or include a note with the coin explaining
his decision and reasoning behind it ?
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Replies: 94 / Views: 19,144 |
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Posted 03/11/2017 08:21 am
