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 Replies: 214 / Views: 30,624 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
Dbm, look at this. http://goccf.com/t/271041Another one the op had graded from the same seller. But look at the letters, the sharpness- the flatness. Look at that luster&surfaces. I think few would say it's nothing short of spectacular. 15000$ coin at least. We need to find an obverse 2 large cent to compare it to. There are tells on it, like the tells on the 1888, but need to point them out. I'm not a large cent expert but would like to know. This is Rob Turners genuine 1891 ob 2 rev image I hope it's ok to use it if not please delete  This is the op's 1891 ob 2 bought from the seller and graded by ICCS ms 64  I've looked at all small details on reverse as well and I can't tell any difference? Maybe it's that good? Or is is genuine? Edited by Alan
10/16/2016 11:37 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
288 Posts |
There's a raised die lump next to the I in DEI on the coin in question.
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Moderator
 Canada
10458 Posts |
I wonder if it would XRF as bronze, or pure copper? From what I can see, that large cent looks legit... but did it come from the same source as the 1914 Edward 10c?
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
I think everyone should slow down and take a breath and let's put to rest this 'end of the coin hobby' scenario.
ICCS in the past has been on the ball when it comes to detecting fakes.
I'm not just talking about the easy to spot Chinese fakes, but not too long ago, there was a whole bunch of high quality KGV nickel fakes that ICCS was sharp enough to spot.
Let's give them time to sort this out.
They're only human and I'm sure in time, with some of our help, they will turn this thing around.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
Yeah this is the original listing 311690269439What are your opinions on all this sp? Do you think it's possible to do this with 3d dies? From high quality images? I understand the technology is very capable, and is a matter of time for this sort of thing to be used for many purposes, most good some bad. I have knowledge through individuals that have used them, they're re blown away by what you can make. Even machines like the lathe will be obsolete, for many uses, I suppose. Also could you have ever imagined something like this? Edited by Alan
10/17/2016 12:15 am
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Valued Member
Canada
395 Posts |
I believe it is this one from the same seller http://www.ebay.ca/itm/08-9-CANADA-...311690269439You can see the exact same scratches on the sellers picture in between the N and E of ONE and between the N and T of CENT. Unfortunately the original sellers pictures you cannot see the blob as it's a poor quality picture. In this particular case for the 1891 coin doesn't this Victorian obverse have the usual counterfeit scratch near the hair band. I've circled in red.  I think Coinhunter has done a great job exposing this and hopefully this will stop the flood of these high quality counterfeits sooner because of it. The original seller really seems like they must know that they were selling counterfeit with this many counterfeits being sold and a history of some feedback about counterfeits. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
To clarify, this is the same coin in the listing posted, that's the coin that op bought from the counterfeit seller. And now it's graded 64, but almost looks 66!
Yes, good on him for being forthright, the whole experience is terrible for him, but acknowledge and thank him for being forward.
checked the PCGS registry, nothing like this for that year
Edited by Alan
10/17/2016 12:27 am
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
After looking, It would be very interesting if it was an ob 4, very close to the obverse 2, but the obverse 4 isn't in use till 1892. The op's coin chin nose and mouth look more like and obverse 4 to me IMO. There should be a marker of some sort between the two beside subtle facial differences.
Edited by Alan
10/17/2016 12:55 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
Sp, I also notice a very soft even effect on entire obverse especially the bust that I can't seem to find on any other bright ms 65 Rd + Vic. And, I'm not sure weather it's the plastic, but there is almost a sweep across her face, almost if the die was polished in that fashion, Can see the effect on the coin. After looking at pictures, there is something just too good about this coin, appearance wise. That 1888 they sold is also the same, bright red, this same soft effect I'm referring to 311683993696 , it's a different ob die to the 1891. Its supposed to be a oh 2, because that's all 1888s are, but it is subtly different than any ob2's I've seen. Red wise, this is Landon or better, maybe the best I've seen in hand or any picture.   Edited by Alan
10/17/2016 01:33 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
Quote:
but there is almost a sweep across her face, almost if the die was polished in that fashion, Can see the effect on the coin. die polishing would only affect the fields which are the highest points on a die...what that looks like to me is a remnant of the process in which the planchet was made....these fakes are unbelievable in a scary way! note the die crack on the "C" of "VICTORIA" on the 1891...maybe we have a die marker? this whole thing really scares me to be honest  these are well done fakes but at the same time I think this is the final nail in the coffin for me to be done with ICCS.. Feel free to call me Will.
Edited by thedollarman
10/17/2016 01:41 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
The posthumous Edward and the 1920 quarter are definite fakes, I don't know about the large cents they may or may not be, but at least two fakes in ICCS holders from one submission really makes me wonder how big this iceberg is that we are seeing the tip of.
Really wish I could be as optimistic as doubleeagle59.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
10/17/2016 01:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
theres just something not right about the surfaces of the pennies IMO. It's very subtle and can't quite get it into words.
Also getting the Aussies to check the amazing Australian coins sold by the seller for problems.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
Everyone needs to remember that the new counterfeits are done through Cad-Cam, where computer images are taken of a REAL coin and then used to laser-cut the counterfeit dies. I can speak for the large cents, but I'm sure that the silver denominations are the same. Computerized imaging and the subsequent making of the dies results in imperfections where there are gradual depth variations around the design. SPP shows how there are visible differences around the lips and eyes, but I see it most where the hairline meets the forehead and the crown tip meets the beads. Because the computer image was taken from a REAL coin somewhere, then any scratches or minor imperfections in the real coin are transferred to the fake dies and you can usually tell the fakes by those imperfections on each fake. The differences in the lips, hairline, and crown tip are imperfections caused by the computer not being accurate enough to make depth differences and are NOT on the copied coin, but they are easy to find if you know where to look. If anyone out there wants to know what to look for, Mike M still has plenty of CD's that show the latest in fakes and what to look for. The "what to look for" doesn't have to be on the exact coin or denomination that you have in hand .. it will show places that the computer has a hard time replicating some design transitions, usually around the eyes, lips, crown tips, and face wrinkles or "laugh lines". I'll email Mikey and get him to look into this thread. It's nothing new, as the counterfeiters (usually Chinese) have been faking common coinage and NCLT for the past few years. As for ICCS and others, the less than 20 seconds per side to accurately(supposedly) grade isn't enough time to find the new fakes. It's why I buy the coins, and not the TPG cardboard. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1461 Posts |
Just to touch on a few points. The three coins are all from the same source (this was mentioned earlier in the thread). No other coins were bought by me from this source at any other time. Although they were all sent together to ICCS along with others, they were actually graded at different times (a week apart). This 1891 plus another 1891 together (lower grade and yes legit) were graded early at my request, the two others a week later with another batch. Looking at Rob's example, one thing that jumps out at me is the jewel detail next to the beads on top of the hair. The strike does give an impression of being weak. There are no striations on the coin. It appears to be copper. The color on this coin is bang on (almost too perfect). This conversation is hind-site, have no illusions about it, this coin would fool most collectors without taking the time to dissect it. The original pictures were way off color. The 1914 was obviously embarrassing for me (and should be for ICCS) but I process so many coins that if they look higher grade at a glance they get shipped to ICCS. This incident aside, I'm still a big proponent of graded coins in what is now a largely online hobby.It offers at least some sort of safeguard and opinion on what's being bought and sold. Most of my coins are locally bought but I do take many risks on raw coins all around the world and do very well on many. Although I'm not sure I would recommend this strategy for the average collector. With respect to this seller, he has been contacted and the initial dialog with respect to a refund is positive but I'm trying to negotiate a refund and retain the coins so they can be used as research. Feel free to contact me with any other questions.
Edited by TheCoinHunter
10/17/2016 10:22 am
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Replies: 214 / Views: 30,624 |
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Posted 10/16/2016 11:44 pm
