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Pillar of the Community
United States
1937 Posts |
I am not sure this is counts..?   |
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
Welcome to this thread Bate, but no, that's not what's referred to. That is just a discolored coin, circulaed environmental damages most likely. The Black Beauty as described is generally of only specific dates of the 1950's and a few obscure dates in the 1960's. Look at the previous example, 1959P, a prime year and mint, for all BB's were from the Philly Mint.
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Moderator
 United States
188770 Posts |
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The coin on the right looks very promising for a genuine Black Beauty . Yes.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
@crazy: Sorry I never answered your question. My friend I got the quarter from said the roll was a bank roll of all the same MM and date. I took a pic with just a random quarter from my pocket. He asked me if I had ever seen one before and wondered what it was. B/c of CCF I suggested a BB. To my delight, he then gave it to me  I have read all through this thread. In hand, the quarter certainly meets all the criteria. Anyone else have any other denominations they can post a pic of? How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
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Bedrock of the Community
  United States
12477 Posts |
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The coin on the right looks very promising for a genuine Black Beauty . Yes.  That one looks on target, @dadsoncoinhobby. I may have to take pics, but I thought of this topic when I received my newest purchase of a BU date/mm run of Jeffs from 1953-1964. These were upgrades for my album and I paid close attention to the '58-'60 coins to see if anything stood out. The 1959 (P) caught my eye, not because of a noticeably darker color, but because of some iridescent hues coming off of it when held at a certain angle. It was not the same as toning I've seen before on Jeffs, but was similar to the undertones seen on a Black Beauty. Hmmm...  I guess I need pics. @Earle42 I have not see this on any CuNi clad denomination. However, my history of scrutinizing coins is relatively short. In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
Edited by spru
05/24/2018 12:35 am
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
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@crazy:
Sorry I never answered your question. My friend I got the quarter from said the roll was a bank roll of all the same MM and date. I took a pic with just a random quarter from my pocket. I went back and looked over your quarter again. I think you do have a mint sintered planchet. That is an annealing error. If you read the section in error-ref.com about this, it explains what happens in the process. This does turn coins darker, but the hue seems to take on more the coppery-red than a cobalt-blue. Check the reverse of the 1962 nickel Mike Diamond uses as his example. (now his coin there is the extreme...) I do want this thread tho to stick with the nickel "Black Beauty" topic, annealing errors of other denominations is best left on another topic thread entirely. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1602 Posts |
Crazyb0: I like your ideas for testing, whether destructive or not. What we really need is a mass spectrometer, a high speed metal saw and some "samples" to analyze. Also, if there is cobalt contamination, the coins could be mildly radioactive so a sensitive meter or some good old fashioned x-ray film would be handy. I'm interested in dates. So far the modal examples are '58 & '59 with the outliers being '55 and '63 [Surf-city-NC 1963 example]. I am adding '64. I have a 1964-P. Addressing coop's authenticity concern, it came directly from a packaged mint set that I opened. I took a picture of it but the pic isn't immediately available [Yes, that means I can't remember where I saved it]. So, that extends the date range* forward one year. Does anyone have a nickel with a later date? This quarter business is interesting as well since the cladding is CuNi. Remember that nickels of all ages are 75% copper and 25% nickel. While improper annealing is certainly the cause of BBs, variation in composition within a year may contribute to some FIDOs we see. ------------- * I put this in to remind us all that the early '60s was the time when the US Mint was doing all sorts of irregular (crazy) things. They were switching alloy on "silver" coins, new reverse on cents, and fast tracking a new half design. then there is the whole pre- and -post dating of cents and others due to collector and hoarder paranoia. Would they be using old planchets from the late 1950s in a pinch? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
@crazy - thanks for this info. having never sen a BB in hand, and seeing online where some have called a BB a sintered planchet, I was not sure if the BB's were the same or not. When I looked this up (quite awhile ago), online sources I found were calling BBs "sintered."
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
Biedercoins, for our findings to date, ALL BBs seem to be from Philly mint, the preponderance in the 1958-59 range. They have been reported earlier, as sintered planchets. It is actually quite easy to "mimic" a sintered planchet coin. Heat a nickel under a Bunsen burner then "temper" it by a dunk in cold water. If the coin reached the right internal temp, that will "harden" (temper) the materials turning them black. Many nickels we see are high school shenanigans and actual science projects. Poor Abe even gets "crinckely" from a heat treatment. Now this can happen in the mint processes in their annealing ovens, too hot, not enough O2 in the air, etc, these are the annealing errors as Earle42's quarter. Why there's not more examples, is a guess. Is it materials, process or both? I lean more towards the both. Specific trace elements plus heat factors of the ovens (placement, malfunction?) is my guess. This could account for such a small amount found, quite the variances involved throughout the manufacturing process could make just a hand full or a whole blanking stock plate of samples!
Edited by Crazyb0
05/25/2018 5:48 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
509 Posts |
This is a great discussion here, I have gained a lot of knew knowledge in reading all of the different takes on black beauties. Thank you to all contributors.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12477 Posts |
That's why it's here and I am happy it helped!  In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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New Member
United States
2 Posts |
I have a 1989 P black beauty nickel full steps. I'm having issues uploading pictures.
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Moderator
United States
188770 Posts |
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New Member
United States
2 Posts |
Edited by waltmagic
06/30/2018 4:32 pm
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
 to our continuing discussion of these anomalies! You may possibly have what is known as a "sintered" planchet, but I personally have my doubts. A Black Beauty as we've described within this thread has to do with a specific type and era of coin found from the mid to late 1950's as verified. There are other dates that have been reported, but these just aren't exactly the same type material. It is thought that a Black Beauty is a product ofan incorrect annealing process, too much/too little oxygen in the furnace to temper the coin, and a possibly trace element difference in the alloy mixes which causes a unique darkening, not found in a common sintered planchet. You MAY have a mint sintered planchet OR one done by our favorite un-named Garage Job Imp with a blowtorch and bucket of cold water. The darkening is generally heat related damages, a fire, intentional damage, even chemical immersion. Another fine point is, you didn't indicate Mint. ALL KNOWN Black Beauties are Philly mint, none from Denver or San Fransisco.  |
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Posted 05/14/2018 2:49 pm
