What I Dislike In Modern Semi-Numis Bullion, How I Try To Steer Clear Of It

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yup7676 Pillar of the Community United States 3789 Posts	Posted 10/21/2017 1:45 pm what I dislike in modern semi-numis bullion- These are my biggest pet peeves when it comes to collecting moden semi-numis bullion- 1- milk spots 2- toning on the rim of silver coins 3- brown spots on bullion gold Those are my top 3 irks, pet peeves. That said, I realize that imperfections are going to happen no matter what, it happens due to many issues, the environment, how they are handled, the manufacturing process and more. That said, I think most of us, when we look through our collection, while this is unavoidable, we really strive to have our collections immaculate and other collectors, should we go to sell our collections are also going to be looking for these defects. So here is what I have learned and tried to avoid- 1- Know which bullion series are problematic. Almost all mints suffer issues with milk spots. Canada has got to be at the top of my stay away from list. I would never collect any single bullion canadian silver coins for risk of milk spots for toning issues. China also has those issues, Mexico, Perth, US Mint, to name a few. That said, I am leaning more and more towards buying Perth Mint products, it was refreshing to read on their blog from about a year or two ago how they want to address the issue, tackle it and do their best to minimize it. That instills great confidence in me as a collector and I will be collecting more Perth Mint products. 2- I never buy slabbed silver bullion coins, if I do, I buy proof silver slabbed coins, I go for the 69 grade. Why go for the lower grade? Many times at auction, the 69 grade can be had for less than the issue price, so you have some money and get the slab to protect the coin. Furthermore, should those nasty milk spots show up, and they can even on proof and reverse proof coins, at least you wont get crushed when you realize that the silver coin is not a PF70 anymore. Gold bullion slabbed coins I feel more comfortable with. Yes, they too can get toning and even brown spots but they seem to be less abundant Again, I have bought some MS69 slabbed gold coins at auction that I picked up for LESS than if I bought the same coin unslabbed for say a Buy It Now price as an example. 3- Know what dealers you are buying from. Know their terms. Make sure if you buy a slabbed bullion coin, that the dealer accepts returns. Always ask in detail about the condition of the coin. Random points- Another point I want to make is that even smaller runs of semi-numis bullion coins have issues. The Rwanda wild life series has milk spot issues. Again, really no silver coin is going to be 100% safe from milk spots. When buying from dealers, if they have, say old stock of say a popular bullion series, keep in mind those coins might be rejected coins that could not be slabbed due to issues such as toning, milk spots. Often dealers will have auctions with semi bullion coins from say 8 years ago and these coins will not be in perfect condition. Ask an advance of their condition. Try and buy directly from the mint in some cases, especially from short run semi-numis bullion coins which will help insure you get a coin in the best possible shape- Remember that Benin series that start with the Benin Elephant? My first coin in this series I bought from the dealer who was behind the series in Europe. Came with no toning and no issues to this date. The second year I bought from a reputable dealer on ebay. But here was the catch- this dealer was selling what would be considered rejects of the coins, as I come to find out, all the coins had toning on the rim. Furthermore, it was not just that Benin series. Also the Chad Protection of Nature series, roughly translated, also has the same issues with this particular dealer. Buying directly from the mint or main dealer who has authorized the production of the coin is usually a safe bet to buy from. thankfully the dealer had a return policy and was open when I asked if they had any without the toning on the rim. They told me all of the coins in that series has issues with toning on the rim. IF there is a series you love but are worried about milk spotting, maybe buy an entire roll, if you can. If its sealed and in a tube, should you sell it, the buyers will not really care so long as the tube is sealed. Its a tough road and sometimes no matter what you do, you will discover issues in your bullion coins. In that case, just remember it happens to everyone, all of us. I know in my case, I have some bullion coins from all over the world that are going over 15 years old and have nothing on them and then I have some that do. anyways, I hope this helps new semi-numis bullion collectors! Edited by yup7676 10/21/2017 1:47 pm Report this Post to the Staff

crazyglue Valued Member United States 467 Posts	Posted 10/21/2017 2:15 pm Thanks for the thread on world silver bullion! There has been a significant lack of discussion in threads around semi-numismatic bullion for a while now. I am with you in regard to hating milk spots. I think we all live in fear of them. I do not collect Canadian bullion. I have one bullion maple leaf from each year but that is all. And I collect a lot of world bullion series. It is sad because Canada has so much variety- it alone could probably keep me busy. Just not worth it. No interest. Milk spots have kept me from trying to collect the full Rwanda series also. I have one from every year in bullion...but if it were not for the milk spotting I would have likely gone for the bullion, proof and privy of each year. I have had tremendous luck with my Perth Mint coins. I have a series running on everything (1 oz) that they do...and I have been milk free all except the funnel spider and crocodile wildlife series two year run, which I can do without anyway. I have also had good luck with Somalia Elephants being problem free. Finally, I have had good luck with Libertad proofs so far. I have had terrible times with Canada and Rwanda (as mentioned). Also, with Austria Philharmonic, Britain Britannia, all the Britain, Niue and other recent Lunar coins have been bad. Cook Islands Bounty is terrible for milk spots. Ukraine Archangel has had problems for me. I don't collect gold, so I can't contribute to that discussion. Your points are good reads. The only one I disagree with is buying slabbed coins. It depends on how numis they are for me. For my Libertad proof collection-- 100% slabbed. For my other series I might pick up key dates in 69 if I can get them for the same price as non-slabbed. Thanks for the good post!! Report this Post to the Staff
moxking Rest in Peace United States 17900 Posts	Posted 10/21/2017 2:40 pm An interesting and informed read from both of you. I decided to stay with US only for my last collection, although I have been tempted. I previously collected crown size silver with any animal, bird, fish, etc. While most of those wouldn't be considered semi-bullion they had the spotting problem. Report this Post to the Staff
sel_69l Bedrock of the Community Australia 21789 Posts	Posted 10/21/2017 5:27 pm The imperfections mentioned aren't necessarily a problem of the Mint that produced them. They could be a result of how the coins are stored. A collector MS70 bullion coins is really a coin collector, and not a bullion accumulator, because of the premiums that are paid in the search of perfection. There is a short two page introductory chapter (5), in the 2012 U.S. Coin Digest: "Don't be Fooled by High Grade Coins". The Mints do their best to produce a high grade product, and so strive to achieve the MS70 grade as often as possible. As their product quality increases, the MS 70 coins become more common. Report this Post to the Staff
Liquidsilver7 Valued Member United States 142 Posts	Posted 10/21/2017 6:05 pm I absolutely hate milk spots and thats why I slowed down on silver. But I did pull the trigger on some killer looking coins I couldnt resist. I need more discipline...haha Perth Mint is better with milk spots but I do have some lunar 2 tiger silver that has some mean looking milkspots on them so if its gonna happen its gonna happen:( Report this Post to the Staff
yup7676 Pillar of the Community United States 3789 Posts	Posted 10/21/2017 8:27 pm Completely and totally disagree with sel_69l's comments. He is wrong. thus far most mints have REFUSED to even acknowledge these problems or even offer to fix the problems, unlike the Perth Mint, so you come across like you are pandering to the mints such as the RCM. sorry Bud, but RCM bullion coins, with their milk spotting issues on bullion are not even coming close to MS70. RCM is one of the worst offenders, almost everything bullion silver they produce comes with milk spotting, look at their recent 5 oz maple leaf coins, FULL of milk spots. Are you keeping up with whats been happening? RCM is cranking tons of bullion and they are NOT creating lots of MS70 silver bullion coins LOL Report this Post to the Staff
sel_69l Bedrock of the Community Australia 21789 Posts	Posted 10/22/2017 7:02 pm I do not tolerate milk spots, and toning on the rims of proof silver coins in mint packaging, either. I also agree that the sealing of proof coins from the environment must be improved when such complaints that are so often substantiated. I would suggest that the RCM should consider that higher value proof coins should be individually sealed in acrylic capsules that are welded permanently, and can never be opened without destroying the capsule. Not my idea; the Royal Australian Mint has been doing this for at least two decades. Such products 20 or more years old are as good as the day they were encapsulated. Generally speaking, mints do not spend so much effort on the packaging of non proof coins, and certainly even less so on non proof bullion coins. I would understand any justification the mint may make with these products. I would not bother with slabbing on non proof bullion coins. Much cheaper to use resealable acrylic capsules if think the coin needs it. I buy these sort of capsules for a 50 cents each. Much cheaper than slabbing fees and shipping costs. A bullion dealer does not bother very much if a coin has spotting or toning, especially with a non proof product. Report this Post to the Staff
mr1030 Valued Member United States 120 Posts	Posted 10/22/2017 7:24 pm From what I have read in the past, the milk spotting problem is a result of the cleansers they use on the blanks when they are washing them in preparation to being stamped. I'm assuming that the fact of the Perth Mint and some others not having nearly the problem with spotting shows that they do a much better job at washing off the blanks compared to The Royal Mint and RCM (the worst). The Perth Mint has always fostered the idea of their coin lines being highly valued as collector items, thus the yearly changing artwork, and not just bulk bullion items. I imagine Perth spends a bit more effort and expense in the washing process compared to other mints. Report this Post to the Staff
sel_69l Bedrock of the Community Australia 21789 Posts	Posted 10/22/2017 10:13 pm Fair point to be made. Report this Post to the Staff
1cent Pillar of the Community Canada 1051 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 03:27 am The RCM doesn't care about silver Maples being milk spotted because they are bullion coins. If you buy high quality proof silver RCM coins (ie. collector coins), you won't see milk spots. The idea of "perfect 70" bullion coins is sort of ridiculous when you think about it, though it hasn't stopped people from spending large amounts of money on the piece of paper inside the TPG slab. Again, it's nothing to do with environmental exposure, the coins leave the mint with chemical residue that will cause the spots. I bought a sleeve of 10 of the 1 oz "Wolf" Maples that were sealed in RCM squares, and more than half showed milk spots to varying degrees. Personally, I look through a large quantity of silver coins with gloves, pick the ones with no visible flaws, and snap them into Quadrum Intercept holders. Report this Post to the Staff
crazyglue Valued Member United States 467 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 09:14 am I am not sure I agree that high quality proof silver RCM coins won't have milk spots. I see lots of proof and reverse proof with milk spots. Overall, I have never been clear on what is bullion and what is not, from the view of a mint or a collector. Designs that do not change such as Maple Leaf, ASE, Libertad-- the non-proof version is clearly bullion to me. In theory- the Maple Leaf should be enough for bullion, if they are truly only making bullion. I will admit I am ignorant to their business model on the bullion coins (i.e. how much profit per sale of straight BU bullion). But when a mint also puts out .5, .75, 1.25, 1.5 sizes, all with different designs, many of which change yearly with different programs-- if you are telling me they are not trying to sell to a numismatic collecting base...I just won't believe it. They are trying to sell collector coins...even if they are not legal tender or proof. Otherwise they would just make more maple leafs to meet demand. A good business model, if one is trying to sell to a collector base, would be to try to ensure higher quality coins. At least if the intention is to sell more of them. Report this Post to the Staff
Cascade Pillar of the Community United States 7390 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 09:16 am Yup, you forgot one... #4) Any bullion without an elephant on it Report this Post to the Staff
yup7676 Pillar of the Community United States 3789 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 11:37 am LOL@cascade... yea I should have made that point 4, there are not ENOUGH bullion coins with elephants on them All kidding aside, I have had either toning on the rims with the somalia elephants, even colored and gold plated ones. If it isn't milk spots, it is a milky residue on the rim, tho thats not as terrible IMO as those milk spots. Which I may add, I bought a kilo elephant coin and theres zero toning on the rim and just some slight white residue on the rim but it doesn't detract on the coin, actually looks better than the single 1 oz coins. Talk about a big elephant LOL I am eagerly awaiting the 2 oz, 5 oz and 10 oz 2018 silver elephants. Also of note is that I think when dealers sell single coins from a tube and they dont come in a capsule direct from mint, you are looking at getting toning as a very high probability, for that reason I stopped even buying single somalian elephants. as an example- I ordered from 4 dealers- two big name dealers and two small dealers. The 2 smaller ebay dealers, the two coins did NOT get any toning, tho milk spots did surface on 1, the other two coins from two big dealers developed toning right on the rim, I think its clear they were not handled with gloves. So keep that in mind. Buying in capsules will help you avoid some of these toning issues, to a degree. I also think that for stackers, they are split into 2 camps. Those who are stacking with just raw coins, tubes, plastic slips or trays and then the stackers who are buying slabbed silver and gold. I must say, nothing looks more impressive than a 1 oz somalia gold elephant MS-70 in a slab. Yes, I did buy ONE MS-70 slabbed gold coin, but it is and will be the ONLY MS70 and that is because its a gold elephant. BTW, have you ever see the majestic beauty of a slabbed 1 oz gold Somalian elephant? It looks so impressive!! I also do like the idea of slabbed MS69 gold Libertads, not a fan of slabbed silver bullion Libertads tho, they also will get milk spots, toning. Again, you can get those copper spots tho in a coin, it can happen, such as in the gold coins, it has happened to me. For sure tho, I feel comfortable with Perth Mint. I like they have been upfront and willing to tackle the problem. Report this Post to the Staff
Liquidsilver7 Valued Member United States 142 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 3:20 pm They have 1oz 2018 elephants @ APMEX mint Direct. Report this Post to the Staff
Andrew99 CCF Advertiser United States 1533 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 3:53 pm Slabbed bullion is such a racket. 70% of most mint's product is MS-70. Why do you want to buy the rejects? You'll find it really hard to sell MS-69's at any kind of premium as people that collect slabbed bullion want to pay for perfect ones. Even the MS-70s are a bit of a promotional scam, but at least I get it. You want a perfect set of whatever it is you're collecting, but you're still being taken advantage of. Report this Post to the Staff
yup7676 Pillar of the Community United States 3789 Posts	Posted 10/23/2017 5:22 pm I am personally am not looking for premium on MS69 gold coins. I just have observed that you can buy, at auction,from a reputable dealer on ebay, a MS69 coin for LESS than a BIN from the same dealer on ebay or even their regular price from their web site. So thats why some gold coins, I will go for MS69 if they come up for auction. Silver,I stay away from for being slabbed. But again, I did get a 150 gram China panda silver PF69 for LESS, at auction, then most dealers pricing. I gotta say tho, 1 oz gold coins slabbed are pretty darn cool lol Report this Post to the Staff
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