It's Time To Stop Purchasing Raw Coins From Local Coin Shops

Self education/research by those the buyers before plunking down the $ would be a VERY great deterrent, it was a tried and true method up until the slabbing companies started to offer their services.

There also were nowhere near as many fakes back then as there are now (internet and availability to reach a larger market to scam also being a factor), and now we even have fake slabs!



I am here to learn. Can you share with us the things you are thinking about that would help people along?

I am not asking just for newbies sake that you share with us, people who legitimately don't desire to learn to grade could be helped by what you are referring to.





Please remember people enjoy a hobby in different ways. The aesthetic value of coins in albums is something many collectors value. The ability to actually handle the coin itself somehow can provide a sense of actually touching history. A hobby is about fun for the individual, not a "proper" format as preferred by any specific group.

You don't just get authentication when you get a slabbed coin. You also get a grade. Coins that have the CAC sticker are exceptional for their grade. You also may get a details grade if the coin has damage. You can get a variety attribution. You have a guarantee if the slabbed coin is fake.

Ever try to compare a transfer die counterfeit to the real thing? It's pretty tricky to tell the two apart.

@SilverDollar2017
Thanks for the reply.

Although the way some people enjoy the hobby deem these points important, it is a mistake to think these points are universal to the way everyone collects coins.



This is assuming a collector wants or needs someone else's opinions on the coin. I could not care less what someone else thinks of a coin I like so I certainly have no desire to pay someone for something I don't want or need to enjoy the coin.

Besides that, learning how the established (differing) systems assign the numbers (grade) is not difficult if its something someone wants/enjoys to do as a part of how they enjoy coins.



Useless to me - especially to pay someone else to verify what I can have fun finding out for myself. I think they require you to request the variety attribution (and pay more) anyway, don't they?

In fact there is more info on varieties on non-TPG sites, like varietyvista.com. Although I have noted TPG sites can sometimes have some really nice pics of the varieties.

Just like here on CCF, ColoradoBryan posted a method of detecting the Ti and TII 1939 nickels that the TPGS make no mention of. Their method requires a high grade nickel with little wear on the step areas. WHile his is much more simple and can be used on almost any 1939:
http://goccf.com/t/264304

To complement this I made a graphic and posted it along with known mintages of the varieties:
http://goccf.com/t/301282



Which I would have researched enough ahead of time to find out anyway instead of having to pay for it.




yup - and posted the results hoping to show others not only the counterfeit, but how easily these can be identified:
http://goccf.com/t/119357

I bought a fake (2.00) + studied it + photographed + overlayed pics + posted it = fun.

Since having that fake in hand to look at, I have encountered others and found they tend to stick out as fakes.

I think there is some fanciful notion that when you send coins in to PCGS or NGC or XYZ that your coins are routed to an expert in that particular series, someone whose entire career has been devoted to just that one denomination and series; and that is who is offering opinions on your coin.

Reality is that unless you are paying for an upsell like PCGS Variety+Plus or dealing with something odd and not easily attributed (medals, for instance) the person looking at any given coin has to be able to grade everything from Half Cents to Morgan dollars and in between. After enough time of doing so, they will doubtless be proficient, but not nearly at the level of someone who is dedicated to becoming an expert on a certain series of coins.

You would think that Morgan dollars -- one of the most commonly submitted coins in high grades -- would be a slam-dunk for anyone to grade, and yet, time and time again, the grades from the "Big 3" come back all over the place; a piece you grade MS63 might come back anywhere from MS62 to MS65 depending on how many times you submit it, and who happens to be the grader looking at it.

This, more than anything, is the reason to learn to grade your own coins before you purchase them. You will quickly recognize degrees of overgrading -- a coin that you call XF40 and a dealer calls XF45 is likely just a matter of opinion and can often be negotiated, but if you see VF35 and they are telling you it's AU55, there's a problem somewhere.

I still hold to the old adage: grade doesn't matter if the price is acceptable. The dealer sees an AU53 slabbed capped bust half and trusts the TPG; I see an AU53 capped bust half with hairlines, dull luster and absolutely no toning and know it's a light cleaning job that snuck into a market-acceptable AU53 holder. However, if we both agree that it's worth $200, does it matter? I paid what I was willing to pay for that particular capped bust half, and the dealer sold it for what he was willing to take for it.

TPG's will often be better than the "average" grader, but the collector who devotes their time to really, really learning how to grade their favorite coin series will find that they disagree with the TPG grade a disconcerting number of times!

(nb. I sent 7 classic US coins to PCGS on March 8 for Economy grading with some free vouchers. It's May 6th and they still haven't been completed nor received grades, it's been saying Processing for weeks. Between the exorbitant delays -- the current advertised turnaround time is 30 days for Economy according to their Statistics page -- and the amount being charged for non-free submissions, learning how to grade correctly becomes a much more attractive proposition.)

I think I see what you mean about doctoring. Are you referring to things like the times where they actually go into the side of the coin to make a raised mintmark on the surface?

And you are correct with something like early gold (which I could never afford anyway). When I get into a new series though, I enjoy digging as deep as I can with any reference I can to learn more - that all, to me, is part of how I like the hobby.




Some people always will be fooled. Being very active in the hobby in the 70s and 80s, and even working in a coin shop then, the mindset was totally different in the hobby.

People did not care about desgnations like FS, FBL etc. since the market had not yet been created. in the same way, grades were talked about, but since a system was not being used which meant people would pay thousands more fo just one point difference, it was not as important as whether the buyer liked the look of the coin.

And if a buyer did, which was rare as I remember, ask the shop owner why the owner had a certain grade on a coin, the owner would enjoy going into details over why he graded it as he did. This is very unlike today where TPGs will not give specifics for each coin when asked.

Counterfeits were sure nowhere near the problem they are nowadays. Mostly fakes were of rare items to maximize profit. Nowadays internet marketing power has made for even common coins being counterfeited. These fakes almost grow on trees now.

I also personally think the internet is what actually gave slabs the opportunity to become popular. People saw a business that said they offered a way for the buyer to have an expert's ideas in the situation when the buyer could not handle the coin before buying. The businesses had found a great way to expand b/cmost people would not want the hassle of dealing with returns if the coin was not, in hand, what the seller had said it was online.

A side issue was that as more and more people got onto the internet (aso resulting in more coin collectors ), newbies started to only know a coin hobby where it just "seemed" using a TPG is as normal as breathing. Without giving much thought to it, they simply follow suit. Look at how many newbies come onto CCF wanting to know if they "should" slab this or that and the people here explain to them its not just a "natural thing" that needs done (with resale being the number one reason normally suggested as the reason to slab something).

There are many dealers (and collectors) who have sent coins in 10 or more times trying to max the grade including bouncing them between NGC and PCGS, ask them about the results...you'll see what I mean -- scattershot.

That would be one example. Or smoothing surfaces, filling holes ect. Things of that nature generally yes.




I definitely agree they have increased as what always happens over time, but I also do think that part of the increase is awareness. 40 years ago a fake or altered date could get stuck in an album and no one would ever know. Now a lot get brought to light and shared with everyone else.




The internet was certainly part of it, though I would say TPGs did more for the online market place of coins than the other way around.




The point was 62 and 65 are light years apart. A coin would have to have been severely undergraded to start at a 62 and reach gem status.




I'm well aware of the practice and if you think they're getting 62's into 65 holders you don't understand what's happening