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Indian Cent - Cultural Appropriation?

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Earle42's Avatar
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10047 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2019  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@basebal21


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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2019  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I disagree with the contention that FB, Twitter, etc, have really changed much as far as "being outraged over trivial issues". Who wore what to church on Sunday, an Irish family moving to the neighborhood, etc, still spread like wildfire. It was just face to face or by letter, instead of by electronic device. People were still people. And they were well aware of the symbolism chosen for their coins.

Here is a (to me) fascinating paper on this exact topic. It is very long.

Classicizing America's Indian in the Mid-Nineteenth Century: James Longacre's Indian cent
http://www.michigancoinclub.org/articles14.html

"That this design was accepted as America is intriguing because Americans at the time were savvy regarding symbols and what they meant. "
"...in a nation divided on the subject of slavery, Longacre could not have placed a cap on Liberty" because "the cap reflected the Roman tradition where freed slaves would cover their heads with a cap". So while "for early America, this cap was a symbol of America's freedom from governing nations", it was politically unacceptable on a coin in 1859.
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2019  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I disagree with the contention that FB, Twitter, etc, have really changed much as far as "being outraged over trivial issues".


Of course there have always been people that get outraged over trivial issues, but social media has given them an exponentially increased voice to do so.

It's changed it in the sense that now it's very easy to find something to be outraged about with the increased visibility of everything online, and it's much easier to pile on/get people to pile on. The other thing it has done is given the opportunity for small groups to become very vocal and make something seem like a mainstream issue that just isn't.

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 Posted 03/12/2019  07:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Next we pick on the Eagle?
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2019  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...or jbuck being assertive.
It was just a warning for everyone to keep it civil. That is all. Nothing more.

Quote:
jbuck don't ban me :)
Not today.
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kbbpll's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2019  11:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's not a matter of "picking" on it, but of trying to understand it in the context of the times. I find it quite fascinating that to make Lady Liberty distinctly "American", we ended up with a fake "Indian Princess" wearing a war bonnet.
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 Posted 03/12/2019  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nick10 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Judging one era by the standards of another commonly yields anachronisms like this.

Another example: given what the "white man" did to Native Americans by 1913, is depicting an Indian on the Buffalo nickel any less offensive than the IHC?
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jaxenro's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2019  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jaxenro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Just trying to understand if this would have been something people of that era would have considered at all"

No
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 03/13/2019  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
it seems this could have been taken as a pretty inappropriate gesture for the time when REAL persecution of Native Americans was still fresh in the American consciousness.

Yes it was fresh in their consciousness, but also at the time, in general, the persecution was considered a GOOD thing.
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luvmyCAM's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2019  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add luvmyCAM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hmmm ? hmmmm
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KenKat's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2019  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There were 32 states in the US when 1859 started, with much open territory in the US west still to be settled. The US was still close to 50 years away from completing the taking of Indian lands as part of what ultimately became the 50 states known today. So I don't think Americans were thinking of persecution of Native Americans in 1859. These thoughts likely did not emerge until the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 60s.

As this country was settled, I believe there was always some aspect of romanticism of Native Americans and Native American culture. As the nation expanded West, this was reflected in items such as the Indian Head cent and even the Buffalo nickel, which marked the end of the Westward Expansion - Arizona and New Mexico were admitted in 1912, making the lower 48 complete. The coin designs reflect this.

I fairly recently read "The Last of the Mohicans", written in 1826, and it very strongly conveys the romantic themes of the frontier and the current residents of that frontier (the Indians) as both noble and savage. I was very surprised by this given the date it was written.

The history of the world is made up of many terrible and wonderful things. How it can be so is the great mystery of our life on this planet.

Edited by KenKat
03/17/2019 10:38 am
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KenKat's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2019  10:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
p.s. If you are interested in more about how human societies evolve and interact, the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond review 13,000 years of it. 1998 Non-Fiction Pulitzer Prize winner. What happened to the Indians is a recurring theme throughout human history.
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aceman920's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2019  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aceman920 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@KenKat Firstly I can appreciate that viewpoint. And although I agree that the general public might have had feelings of "romanticism" toward the American Indians, I believe the facts of the government's treatment of them is contrary.

Firstly, although it is true the Western territories were not "settled" or ratified as States yet, all of these lands to the Pacific coast, north to Canada and South to the current border of Mexico were United States territories by the end of Mexican-American war in 1848. This set the stage for America's westward settlement, later coined "Manifest Destiny".

Inconveniently, American Indian people populated much of the country from coast-to-coast. The forcible removal of Native American people from their lands via the Indian Removal Act of 1830 and the subsequent "Trail of Tears" resulting in thousands of American Indian deaths was the means by which the United States cleared the way.

So maybe persecution is the wrong word. But there is no doubt that the United States had done the Native people wrong especially in the era immediately prior to the release of the IHC. Whether or not that was well-known by the public is probably another matter.

If anybody is interested in learning about this from the Native American side, I would suggest a great book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. It explains in detail, many of the manipulations and maneuvers between the U.S. officials and the Native leaders during this period. It is a good contrast to the one-sided version we get in our government history books.
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KenKat's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2019  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Clearly what happened to Native Americans was terrible beyond words, a dark chapter of US history. We've got others as well. My point was that the public in 1859 did not see it as persecution and so would not have seen the Indian Head cent design as inappropriate at that time. The design probably is "cultural appropriation" viewed from the lens of the current day, but probably would not have been viewed that way in 1859.
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aceman920's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2019  12:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aceman920 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hear that.

Thanks for the civil discussion.

Also appreciated this:


Quote:
The history of the world is made up of many terrible and wonderful things. How it can be so is the great mystery of our life on this planet.
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