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1652 New England 3 Pence?

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Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2020  07:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Something seems off about the parellel lines on the E in this photo
1652-New-England-3-Pence?
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larsjan's Avatar
Netherlands
53 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2020  08:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsjan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do you mean these little lines?
That seems to me small scratches.


1652-New-England-3-Pence?
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2020  12:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ya, hmm looks good to me ! Looks old...
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2020  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Microscopic evidence of how the punch was made? Normally when I see these I'm suspicious of a laser-etched die, but in my understanding of that process you'd have to have an original coin to make one.

I wonder if this could have come from the Robert Gilmor, Jr. collection. He was amassing a complete US type set during this period. I can see where he might have put "Quincy family" on the holder if it was originally his, but would he have not known what it was? Idle speculation on my part. http://www.numismaticmall.com/numis...ilmor-robert

A tidbit in this NE six pence listing caught my attention. "Noe identified two varieties of the NE sixpence. This Noe 1-A variety is considered the genuine NE sixpence. The second variety, Noe 2-B, is thought to be a contemporary counterfeit, or perhaps a 19th century copy." So, the notion that there were contemporary counterfeits is coming from somewhere, but what's the source on that? https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/...ction-120115

I know next to nothing about colonials but it's fun poking around. Keep us posted on what you find out. Obviously you know that this is probably a 7-figure coin if it's real.
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2020  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would expect a contemporary counterfeit to be either noticeably underweight, or significantly lower fineness silver. Back then the coins value and acceptance was based on their weight and fineness and were intended to contain nearly their full face value in the precious metal content. The only way for a counterfeiter to profit was by shorting the amount of silver either through debasement or by shorting the weight of the coin. This piece seems to be proper weight and fineness which would seem to eliminate a contemporary counterfeit.

Now a copy could be another matter. A copy would either be made as a souvenir, as a "representative" piece for a collector, or as an outright fake intended to fool a collector and be sold as genuine. A souvenir most likely would not be proper weight and fineness, and most copies of early Mass silver I have seen are also too thick. A representative piece probably also would not be proper weight and fineness. Most such representative pieces are often electrotypes but that would be difficult to impossible on early Mass silver unless they were made overly thick.

That leaves a fake to fool a collector, or a genuine piece. The one thing that bothers me is the NE punch seems to match one from a sixpence better than it seems to match the one on the known unique III pence. But I suppose Hull could have used a 6 pence punch. One question I would have is were the punches different sizes for the different denominations, or could they be used interchangable? If the sizes are different, a nineteenth century forger wanting to make a 3 pence probably couldn't get his hands on the one genuine piece, and probably not a good enough image to make an exact copy of the punch. So what would they do? They could possibly get a sixpence and make a copy of hte punch from that coin in the 3 pence size. So how does the NE punch on this coin compare tot he size of the punch on the six pence that it matches?
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larsjan's Avatar
Netherlands
53 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2020  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsjan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is an article stating that the sixpence stamp was also used for the threepence coin.

I know that this coin is very valuable if it is genuine. Let's hope so.
I had contact with Stack's and they are very enthusiastic.

https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoi...e.intro.html
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2020  11:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any updates? It's been a week. If it's real, I can understand why you might want to "go dark", or maybe you're posting elsewhere?
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Wideglide's Avatar
United States
646 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  12:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wideglide to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is one great story and mystery! When does the movie come out? Seriously, this reminds me a lot of a Samuel L Jackson movie called The Red Violin. Great movie.
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DoctorBurnzy's Avatar
United States
1378 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  1:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Wideglide It indeed was and is a great flick. It's in my dvd/blu-ray collection.
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Ty2020b's Avatar
United States
4680 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2020  1:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
oh the suspense! I'm sure the current state of things has shown down any progress.
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larsjan's Avatar
Netherlands
53 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2020  07:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsjan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello everyone,

Just a small update since a long time.
I am in contact with an auction house and they are still optimistic.
However, it is important to gather as much information about this coin as possible to determine the authenticity.
It would also have to go to the USA to have it examined by a number of experts and possibly to compare it with the only other known copy.

Recently I also had a very interesting offer from a collector who wants to buy the coin "as is" from me.
So now I have to consider what I am going to do, sell the coin for a good offer or enter a probably long process to determine the authenticity and then auction it off. However, if he is found to be genuine, he could earn even more than the current bid.

Unfortunately, I cannot put all my time in this coin because my business should continue as usual, but I will keep doing it and as soon as there are new developments I will report it here.
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edweather's Avatar
United States
7375 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2020  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's fortunate you have an offer. Maybe you can work with that and get the offer price up a bit. Since you don't have time to pursue it, that might be your best avenue.
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2020  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was a second known threepence. That one was stolen from yale. Theres a Possibility that this is that coin resurfacing after many years? You may want to contact them. If it isn't their coin they may have some pictures to help authenticate yours!
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nfine's Avatar
United States
3472 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2020  12:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe the coin stolen from Yale was 1652 Colonial willow tree three pence, not a NE three pence.
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2020  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a casual observation - several times I have seen coins like this get brokered by a dealer in a private sale that then show up 6 months later at a major auction and net 5-10x what the private sale was for. Yes, the person making you the offer will have to take the risk and do the rest of the legwork. It seems like someone like Stacks would do the work for you but I'm not sure. Sending it off to the US would sure make me nervous! (I'd fly over with it personally if it were normal times...)
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