| Author |
 Replies: 638 / Views: 125,106 |
|
|
|
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts |
Im pretty sure there was an ne threepence along with the willowtree threepence. I saw it recently in a source, ill post it if I can track down where I saw it.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Edited by kbbpll
05/05/2020 4:18 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
646 Posts |
Quote:
Here is a list of coins stolen from Yale. I just read through some of that. I'm wondering how many of those coins now reside in the collections of some of our members here...  |
|
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts |
Here I found it, ive seen it in multiple sources, but this is christopher salmons book on the silver coins of massachusetts  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
That seems odd to me. If Yale had one, how could it not figure prominently in their list of stolen coins, particularly in their "easily identifiable" list? Surely they would have known what it was, as their Willow Tree coins were pictured in Noe's 1943 book. If they had a second example of the NE threepence, it would have ranked up there with the Brasher doubloon. The stolen Willow Tree threepence is attributed to Yale in Noe's book and pictured in plate XIV, so I doubt that Yale would have confused a Willow Tree with a NE.
At PCGS under New England Silver Coins, Ron Goth says 2-3 threepence known, but then under their "3pence" page he says "The New England Three Pence is known by only one example, currently owned by the Massachusetts Historical Society". There are only 3 known Willow Tree threepence, one stolen from Yale, so it seems like the first PCGS page is just wrong.
Did Salmon's book present any other evidence of a second example?
|
|
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts |
Yale had 4000 coins stolen, and said a full list would be in great depth, maybe since the ne shillings dont have a date they were categorized differently and forgotten about. I found this snippet of a book . Its from 1880 and states that the ne threepence was the prized gem of the collection.  |
|
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts |
Whitman encyclopedia of colonial and early american coins  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Those references are very interesting, and hopefully useful. We've gotten sidetracked but I think it's worth it. I still can't fathom how the "gem of that cabinet" in 1880 could get "categorized differently and forgotten about" by 1965, but forgotten items get reexamined in dusty old museum boxes a lot I suppose. I've looked through that stolen list multiple times and they sure seem to have known what they had. Your Yale catalog reference goes on to say: "For a long time supposed unique, its value is not lessened by the recent discovery of a similar piece in Boston, which puts the genuineness of the issue beyond a doubt". What is this Boston coin? The one at the MA Historical Society? A Wyatt or other fake? The OP's coin? A June 4, 2014 Coin World article states: Quote:
Just one NE Threepence is currently known. "To my knowledge, the NE Threepence is unique," John Kraljevich states. It has been in the collection of the Massachusetts Historical Society for many decades. Dr. Salmon remarks that he "does not know of any others" and has not heard credible rumors of another NE Threepence surviving. Christopher Salmon has written academic articles about Massachusetts Silver coins and his book on this topic was published by the ANS in 2010. Salmon does not receive any proceeds from sales of his book.
Separately, a 'Northeast Collector.' who has a comprehensive collection of Massachusetts Silver, has "not heard of another Threepence existing during the last thirty years." There were, though, reports in the past of additional NE Threepence coins surviving. So, another genuine piece could be around. Forgeries have surfaced, especially in Great Britain. Dr. Salmon appears to contradict his book, but perhaps he was misquoted. |
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
3098 Posts |
This has been one of the most interesting on-going threads I've followed during my years as a CCF member.
My thanks to all who have added to the discussion. This is not my area of collecting at all, but it sure has been a fun detective type story to follow.
Paul Bulgerin
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4692 Posts |
Interesting thread. Has recovery of any of the stolen Yale coins been documented or anyone ever considered a suspect? Hard to imagine a collection like this being sloppily guarded unless it was an inside job.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4692 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4692 Posts |
Page 95 of this reference from 1871 clearly states that there are 2 ne three pence, one at Yale. https://books.google.com/books/abou..._DNMAQAAMAAJ. It's a bit confusing because they go right into mentioning a pine tree but confusion is cleared up by looking at the ne three pence on the cover of the document link which is what they refer to -- the pine tree reference is not to a coin but the pine tree that is part of the emblem on the cover. I think I solved the issue of how many were known (2) with 1 residing at Yale. If the op coin is authentic, it very well may be the Yale example since the only other possibility would be a new discovery. By chance I noticed that page 61 of this same document appears to reference a sale in 1832 of a new England three pence. Edited by jimbucks
05/07/2020 03:26 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
So, the "gem of that cabinet" quote in the Yale 1880 Greek & Roman catalog preface is actually quoted from an earlier 1863 catalog. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt...ew=1up&seq=1. The 1863 catalog has a plate of the Yale NE threepence.  If the plate accurately represents planchet cracks etc, it's clearly not the OP coin or the MA historical society coin. The preface quoted in the 1880 catalog is also edited - the Boston piece referenced in 1863 was discovered by a W.S. Appletou, Esq., among a few other omissions. (Read the original text in the link above). The 1863 catalog plate repeats the horizontal lines seen in the plates in "An Historical Account of Massachusetts Currency" (1839, Joseph B. Felt), which apparently(?) came from "A Table of English Silver Coins" (1745, Martin Folkes). Was the 1863 Yale plate just repeating the earlier horizontal lines which supposedly represented blank space?  Is this Yale plate the earliest published representation of the NE threepence? I still don't think the OP coin is fake, but if Wyatt got his fakes from copying the 1745/1839 book, I suppose it's possible someone made NE threepence from the 1863 plate without seeing a real example. How it would have ended up anonymous in a coin cabinet in the Netherlands attributed to the Quincy family in 1798 would be the million-dollar question. There is a New England shilling listed in the 1863 catalog with the threepence (page 20), which is also not in the stolen coins list. Where did these coins go? |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United Kingdom
17956 Posts |
Quote:
This has been one of the most interesting on-going threads I've followed during my years as a CCF member.  I've never seen one of these coins, but I have an 8-volume set of Children's Encyclopedias called "Pictorial Knowledge", edited by none other than Enid Blyton, published just before WW2 and passed down from my mother! There is an interesting section on Coin Collecting that includes a picture of a NE shilling. I remember this fascinated me as a kid and I wondered if all the rest of the design had worn off! I didn't realise then how rare these coins are!  |
|
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts |
Very good research!:) I'm glad your digging up some interesting info I wouldnt otherwise be accessible too! But now your adding more mysterys. The "ashmore copy" like the one I posted before and this threepence I found online resemble the yale plate coin. Now it makes me wonder if these are not ashmore pieces but earlier copys or did ashmore make copys based on these plates? I think they are the only " copies" that have a full half circle on tthe left side.   |
| |
Replies: 638 / Views: 125,106 |
First Page
Previous Page
Posted 05/05/2020 4:16 pm
