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1983 P Lincoln Cent With A Secondary, Incuse & Inverted, Trust In The Corner Of The Rim And Field.

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 06/21/2025  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfamind to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great eye to notice this in the first place.
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-makecents-'s Avatar
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 Posted 06/21/2025  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I look forward to what Mike Diamond shares ... assuming he gets the coin in hand.
I would almost guarantee he will.
-makecents-
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 Posted 06/21/2025  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfamind to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Next thing you're going to tell us, @petespockets55, is that it weighs 3.1 grams!
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Dearborn's Avatar
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Petespockets55's Avatar
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 Posted 06/21/2025  10:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for the delay folks.

Thanks for the kind words. I hope it turns out to be helpful to the hobby.
I'll be glad to send it along Mike.
Please PM me with your address.

I hope this doesn't confuse things, but I will note that there was another coin in the roll with what I would call conventional PSD with an incuse and reversed TRUS on the raised parts of the lower vest and lapel. This second coin is a different die pair with lots of die scratches from die polishing.
I'll send it along as well; in case it is helpful for any reason.

Here is an image of the bust of the second coin with what I assume is PSD. (This coin is different from the original coin in the thread but came in the same OBW roll.)




1983-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-A-Secondary,-Incuse-&-Inverted,-Trust-In-The-Corner-Of-The-Rim-And-Field.
1983-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-A-Secondary,-Incuse-&-Inverted,-Trust-In-The-Corner-Of-The-Rim-And-Field.
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
Edited by Petespockets55
06/21/2025 10:37 pm
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CoinHI's Avatar
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 Posted 06/21/2025  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm, it's looking more like just contact marks PSD for both coins.

Those were tightly packed rolls like you said.
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


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 Posted 06/22/2025  12:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The presence of a very similar second specimen does increase the odds that both sets of letter impressions are accidental contact marks. But I'm still happy to give them a close look.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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 Posted 06/22/2025  12:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, I'm now almost positive that the first set of letter traces represents accidental contact marks. Clash mark letters should be broad, rather than narrow. This is because the widest portion of each letter recess is the portion that is level with the die's field. So, any clash mark should match the broad outline of the letter recess. That's what we see in the 1999 mule clash. Sorry I didn't catch this obvious fact on first inspection. I still find it odd that the raised obverse letters were able to leave an impression in the field right next to the design rim. One would think that both design rims should contact each other, preventing the formation of contact marks.
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CoinHI's Avatar
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 Posted 06/22/2025  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One would think that both design rims should contact each other, preventing the formation of contact marks.


Unless perhaps the coin leaving the impression was slightly off center or had a MAD that was missing the design rim above TRUST.
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


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 Posted 06/22/2025  07:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CoinHI's hypotheses are plausible. There are other possibilities. The coin responsible for the contact mark may have had a very weak or non-existent design rim due to a slightly weak strike. Or the coin may have had a " Ridge Ring" that equaled the height of the design rim. Letters that are being swallowed up by a Ridge Ring are very thin, matching the appearance of the impressed letters on Pete's coin. Anyway, there's no longer any need to send the coin to me given our current understanding of it.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Edited by mikediamond
06/22/2025 07:45 am
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Petespockets55's Avatar
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 Posted 06/23/2025  06:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Mike (and to Coinhi and others for their thoughts also)
I had a feeling the second coin might help.

The part I can't quite wrap my brain around is that the deepest part of the incuse TRUST is so close to the bust, without damaging the shoulder, if this happened after the strike.

Originally, I hadn't considered multiple dropped letters and thought the first coin issue might have happened to the planchet before the strike. I don't see any pressure ridge around the incuse letters and also thought the strike could have caused the odd look, especially to the first incuse "T".

Anyways, thanks again for taking the time to look this over.


Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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 Posted 07/09/2025  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have finished a close, in-hand examination of the 1983 cent with a faint, incuse TRUST hugging the inside of the design rim. I am no longer convinced this is a string of contact marks. I have, in fact, returned to the possibility that we're looking at a mule clash involving two obverse dies. It's possible that the die responsible for a clash was worn, with a Ridge Ring that transformed the letter recesses into narrow, shallow remnants. Under high magnification, the incuse letters on the cent end abruptly at the design rim, follow the topography of the field, and are penetrated by the same radial flow lines as the adjacent field. These observations are inconsistent with contact marks. I'll be writing this coin up for Coin Week.
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Errers and Varietys's Avatar
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 Posted 07/09/2025  4:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting, Mike. Thank you for the update.
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CoinHI's Avatar
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 Posted 07/09/2025  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the update MIke.

Were both coins with similar design impressions examined or just the one?
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


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