VAM World Members Begging For Your Help Please

Do you have a TLDR version of this?

I probably should have asked @messydesk If this was alright with him, That I did this?


Edit . Too long to read ? My deepest apologies sir. It took a very long time to write it . Very well could be the longest post I have EVER written on line .
I found it too difficult to put context in it
Without all the compound sentences and mis-spelled words.

Together We are Legion !

Sorry about that . I could use an editor as well as an English Teacher

I guess what I should have done is just asked a couple questions :

Does anyone here think that it is alright for large online e commerce companies to profit from the continued sales of Fakes in numismatics? What about when sellers and auction houses lie to promote sales ?
Is it alright that even when you report suspicious, possible illegal activity taking place on their platforms, the response might read something like " we have found the listing does not violate the ( insert company name here) policy, blah blah blah .

There are multiple laws in place to protect consumers, and coin collectors . HPA , The FTC ACT , Customs laws . Internet fraud laws ., and maybe even the RICO statute and it really feels like not very much is being done by the different divisions that are in charge of enforcing those laws .

I have read where folks have been told certain enforcement agencies and even divisions of certain online auction house , just don't have time to go after all the individual "snakes " in this game.

The whole thing seems very confusing and extremely un fair .

As far as why this would have anything to do with VAMS . ?
the study of die varieties on Morgan and Peace dollars is just a drop in the bucket of the much broader study of all the different specialties folks collect. VAM guys can usually spot a fake Morgan . A lot of them collect more than just VAMS. I am sure folks here are very proficient at spotting fakes in whatever area they specialize in as well .

Every time you see a fake or a deceptive advertisement/business practice that crosses the line , breaking multiple LAWS online, I/we would greatly appreciate if it is reported . Maybe start with the host online company , If that doesn't work your states AG office and the FTC . and the secret service , and any other Enforcement agency whose job is to uphold the laws of the land /

Will this have any effect on the problem? I am not sure ,
It's a start"
, Ill bet if enough good folks stood up for what is right and ethical maybe Together We could at least fight the good fight ,
Doing nothing is just asking for Trouble IMHO

I figured I would start here before" spamming " the rest of the coin forums, and a couple treasure hunting forums with this plea for help!


It's not all that hard to report fraud. It is getting extremely easy to find it online and that is very concerning.

RE : "we can't rely on governments to stop fakes"
.
That sounds an awful lot like you just described

my very limited under standing of the word Tyranny.

Ya ever seen that kids movie , I think it's called A Bugs Life?
The ants all join together because they have had enough of the grasshoppers.

THE moral of the story IS THEN TOLD , from the mouths of babes.

Pretty disappointing to report to the host company and then ,,,Nothing?

I do appreciate the emotion behind this post. However, you cannot issue a call to action without an action in mind. What action—specifically and briefly—do you want people to take when an online e-commerce platform ignores their report of a fraudulent coin or bullion product?

I think if you check this forum thoroughly, you will find lists of buyers to avoid and listings to avoid. It sounds like you aren't sure what to do. Scams are not really an awareness problem—everybody who buys and sells coins knows that fakes and fraudulent listings are a hazard. I can also tell you with 99.9999% certainty that large corporations and government officials have zero concern for people complaining on Internet forums.

I do wish you luck in your quest, though. =)

I guess I'll circle back to this. Platforms like ebay are rife with counterfeits, fraud, and scams, but the problem isn't limited to numismatics. They have the exact same problem with trading cards, designer purses, watches, jewelry, etc. One difference though is that ebay has started a program to guarantee authenticity in several selling categories by requiring sellers of high priced items to ship to an authenticator. Once the authenticator confirms that the item is genuine and described correctly, they ship it to the buyer, and any further interaction is between the buyer and ebay. If it's determined not genuine, it's sent back to the seller and the transaction is cancelled. I see that as a potential way to limit the number of high priced fakes that make it to uninformed buyers. They aren't doing this with coins yet, but it might be easiest to start by requiring this process on sales of TPG-graded coins over a certain dollar amount. It shouldn't be too hard to confirm authenticity of a coin that's already been authenticated. Obviously, it wouldn't help with the huge number of raw, counterfeit coins out there, so buyer education and caveat emptor is still the rule.

Thank you for your comments.
I'm only two message boards in and this is not so much about stirring the pot but honestly is a plea for help.

Thankfully I have not been burned recently, and although I have just a faction of the knowledge many of you on this forum do, I have really tried in the last 3 or 4 years to educated myself while learning from some of the very best in the world in regard to what we collect.

I am no legal scholar, by any stretch of the imagination but I would like to think I know the difference between right and wrong.

I hope that the links provided in these very wordy posts both here and on the VAM world forum are at the very least educational.

Pretty sure most of us all already know counterfeits are illegal, to manufacture, sell, trade etc.. Do you know that it is also illegal for big business to profit from their sales? I am pretty sure that it has to be shown that they have known and have been complicit in the continued illegal activity. Most folks claim many fakes come from outside the US . They have consumer protection laws in place for that scenario as well.

What exactly is the feedback used for, beside just promoting future sales?
Why is my News Feed now cluttered with additional fake numismatic garbage, from other counterfeiters', ( these so called sponsored ADDS)just because I was hunting one of the crooks to report?

Why are many folks told after they report fakes to the host company, that the listing does not violate the company policy?

Is their policy somehow magically above the laws?

Every once in a while, a guy might get a listing pulled, but those numbers hardly make a dent .

Does ebay and ather platforms do a good job complying with consumer protection, and anti-counterfeiting laws?

Are the enforcement agencies, entrusted with protecting all collectors and consumers doing much of anything here?

We live in a world of 3 D printers and highly advanced scanning techniques. Ray Charles could probably spot a sloppily done imitation.
What about a fake that has the proper die markers, and the correct metal alloy ratio?Do you think it would really be all that hard to make more realistic die's in this day and age?
I wonder if there is not already some "Great Rarity "out there that is in truth just "a melt value trinket"

If I/we can't gain support for this quest I guess it dies on the vine.
Because if only a few of us care then it is all for naut .
You think I like coming off like a lunatic on a message board ?. I am just trying to do something about this !
I am severely handicapped behind a key board. so please forgive the messenger here .

It would be a mistake IMHO to ignore the message, because I feel it really is that important!

We are going to call it Operation Redfeather giving credit for the call to action to the man who inspired it . We REALLY DO need everyone's help.