Knowledge Is King?

Good points all, and I'm ill-equipped to answer them from my Droid.

I have an opinion, though (what a surprise), and will address it when I get home from work tonight.

Vamming is such an encompassing subject many find too daunting and challenging. As Zeewool discovered, not everything is as it seems. While on the one hand there is the painstaking numismatic forensics to understand what we are seeing, it is quite another to document it and shed further light on the coining process and have those findings accepted by the greater vamming numismatic community.

I have never accepted the conventional explanation for denticle impressions. Zeewool has offered the 'most plausible' explanation I have read on the subject. As least the explanation is based on supporting facts.

As for the future of vamming, all have made excellent points. Leroy Van Allen (age 82)owns the intellectual rights to vamming. He can pass these to someone else while living or upon his passing will them to whomever he wishes. He may decide to do nothing and in the event Leroy passes before his wife these rights would be transferred to his wife and she can do with them whatever she wishes. Leroy has not made his decision about what he will do or not do public.

There are a core of collectors who are actively engaged in vamming research. VAMworld started out to be purely an academic resource site. This dynamic is no longer paramount as it is a dealer dominated board. It has the potential to be the greatest single resource site for vams but not all pick up points (pups) are being published.
Some of the reason for this is the intense competition for cherrypicking vams and selling them at a profit. The lack of accurate information and lack of constant updating is a detriment that will need to be overcome.

Like many I am also dubious of the actual number of actual vammers. The question of defining a vammer is a good starting point. That category could be the merely curious who own a few Morgan or Peace dollars and only interested in knowing what vams they are. Then there are the drive-by collectors, those whose collecting habits are hit or miss, a few few here and there. Then there are there are the serious collectors. You would also have to take into consideration the hobbyists and academicians who want only what is best for the hobby. I would be surprised if the actual number of serious vammers is over two hundred. That number I believe is probably closer to one hundred.
Despite these issues, I enjoy vamming and would encourage those entering into the Morgan and Peace dollar hobby into this fascinating facet of the hobby. As I stated earlier in other posts, it is not for the feint of heart.

Guys, I have definitely learned more right here in the last couple of pages of this thread, than I have in the first eight by running my mouth. I really need to learn from this. What I have learned from your posts, is that you who have posted here really are a cohesive community, all singing in tune. I am greatly impressed by this and my perspective of the hobby has changed because of it.

I am not a vammer, though not from lack of trying. I wanted so much to be accepted elsewhere, but I didn't know how to go about it. I tried too hard, tried to go too fast, and was chastised as a consequence. I deeply appreciate the welcome and acceptance that you here, have extended me (an outsider) into your realm of numismatics. I will try to curb my rhetoric beginning right now (although I am weak, and may falter, I will try). Thank you again everyone !

Uh oh, I almost forgot about this:




(I may yet be in for a spanking).

ZEE!!
YOU ARE A PART OF THE GROUP!! YOU TAKE MORE TIME TOO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING FULLY THAN MANY!! MYSELF INCLUDED.

That is a good thing, I have always looked over what you write. Whether you are actively collecting coins or not, is not the point. It's the interest in coins and or process of minting. When you look at both people call you names like VAMMER!!

Understand first that I'm speaking in the spirit of discussion here, and even though I have opinions which disagree with things which have been said I see no reason why this cannot be done sociably.

As Ozland said, Leroy owns the intellectual rights to VAMming. I don't know to what degree that applies in a court of law, but certainly anyone who tried to usurp that right either from him or his designate would find themselves immediately ostracized from numismatics with the greatest of prejudice. I know I'd grab my own pitchfork.

So, it's gonna happen his way.

I sincerely hope that way is to entrust the legacy with a group rather than an individual. He, of all people, must be intimately aware just huge the task remaining is, and how great a load one person must bear to be the arbiter. A sole successor should, realistically, have a number of productive years ahead of them, and would therefore need to either derive income from VAMming, or dilute their available time by the need to earn a living.

The size of the job is what matters, though. It's realistically too much for one man, especially as the volume of information collected directly influences the greater volume of new information needing to be digested. Now, we not only have new discoveries to be attributed, but also older discoveries to be revised and combined.

I don't believe one person could, or should, do this job. Whoever that person might be, they will not have the cachet of Leroy Van Allen, who with his name is able to enforce his will upon the larger VAMming community. No single successor could operate but in an environment of continual second-guessing.

So, to me, the only alternative is an advisory board. SSDC, a 501(c)(3) Corporation whose conditions of existence and operations are therefore governed by law, is the only logical choice for the organization to have oversight of such a board. As an official arm of the Society, it would then be governed by the same laws and therefore have to operate with relative transparency. Furthermore, it would then be subject to the will of the membership of SSDC.

I will disagree here with the idea that the "entire VAMming community" should have responsibility for choosing this board. Not because I dislike the idea, but how does one define the community? Should you own a certain number of varieties? Do we include the guy who just attributed his first VAM and has never heard of Mark Kimpton? Where does it start and end?

I do feel that such a group should stand for election, but by the membership of the SSDC. That would provide much greater control of the whole process, as well as facilitate the dissemination of "campaign" information to a known electorate. Of course, that means we'd have to join SSDC (no, I'm not a member. Yet.) to make our influence known, but the larger SSDC becomes, the less-likely it will be to be influenced by the actions of a few.



There is, of course, the possibility that the whole thing could become perverted. To this issue, I say this:

The dies are the dies. Nobody owns them. The technology to study an individual coin at a level of resolution capable of differentiating between individual dies by their unique markers in protected areas is not out of reach for an individual. Expensive, but not out of reach.

Morgan dollars will be codified. The dies will be known. No law says we have to call them VAMs.

Ow, ow, ow, Ow, Please stop, Ow, ow, OW.. sob, sniff.


You may not believe it Dave, but your words actually do provide a comforting umbrella to the whole thing.

Thanks very much for taking the time to explain that.

WOW this is one of only a few treads that is this long... with a lot of substance in it.