Knowledge Is King?

Rarity has something to it, but then you have too put in grade. Even in just your run of the mill Morgans there are a lot that are just grade sensitive. The 1896-O comes to mind, or the 1884-P the price jump on grey sheet from a MS-64 to MS-65 is almost 5 times more for just the 1 grade on the grey sheet.

The average per-die strike quantity for Philadelphia far exceeds that of New Orleans - over 217,000 for Philadelphia vs. 151,000 for New Orleans. Philadelphia dies were therefore far more likely to reach advanced stages of wear, yet few Philly strikes are known for weakness.

Overpolishing will, in effect, make the die voids shallower, increasing the likelihood that an "average" strike will more completely fill them. Not vice versa. Especially if the differences we're talking about here are only measured in thousands of an inch, and pressure is less-important to a total fill than previously considered.

It's my belief that the known poor quality of New Orleans strikes starts and ends with the placement and configuration of the wedge which regulated the total downward displacement of the hammer die. Perhaps they were allowed to wear beyond reasonable tolerance; perhaps they were knowingly created off-dimension with the intent of lessening wear-and-tear on the press as a whole.

Dave, we disagree on virtually every point, but that has no bearing on my admiration for you as a very experienced vammer/collector. Trust me, I am not going to enter into a flame war with my favorite Mod.


The wedge was not responsible for the downward displacement of the upper die.
The downward movement of the upper die was a result of great mechanical leverage supplied when a toggle joint was straightened with a snap from high tension bending. The part of the joint that actually did this bending, was a large, long bar that connected to an off center crank which was part of the main flywheel, and provided an eccentric circular motion for bending and release of the joint.
The flywheel is the supplied power to every other part of the press, and the flywheel itself was powered by steam. The high tension resulting from bending of this long arm of the toggle joint is only present when the upper die is in the raised position. When in the straight, (or relaxed) position, the upper die is at maximum lowered position.

The wedge moved with (and as a cause of) the movement of the toggle joint. As the toggle joint snapped, it made violent movement both vertically and horizontally. The purpose of the wedge was to stabilize this reaction and thereby control design transfer from upper die to planchet. This was accomplished by the wedge riding between two long steel rods that moved vertically in reaction to the snap of the joint. These rods were attached to the top of the main arch by nuts and lock nuts on the outside of the arch and heavy duty springs on the inside that encircle the rods. The bottom of the rods are attached to the long arm of he toggle joint. The wedge is located between the rods and adjustment bolts and plates are located on the opposite sides of the rods to stabilize lateral movement. As the rods move up and down, the wedge moves with them. Allowing the wedge to wear out or modifying it in any way would have been pointless. Its placement is non-negotiable.


Oz, I do also (on the other hand) believe that it is entirely 'possible' that the O mint did certain things to prolong die life. Where we differ, Dave is what those things may have been. While you will cling to your belief that the wedge controlled the depth of strike, I will not. While I believe that the O mint 'could' have altered the die for the reason of prolonging its life, you will not. I have no aspirations of changing your mind, and you have no chance of changing mine. I have learned several things in the past year, and one of the most important lessons I have learned is that I cannot fight with an angry mob that outnumbers me 100 to 1. I shall not try.


Let me say this, I know absolutely nothing about Peace dollars other than I continually hear about the typically weak strikes on these coins. A year ago, I would have been quite rude and nasty in rebuttal, but today I can only say that it is highly coincidental that all presses in all mints in all years between 1922 -1935 were plagued with striking weakly.


I do not look at weak strikes, but dies of low relief. A lower relief die will last much longer than one of high relief (as was the case of the 1921 Peace).

So increase my knowledge, zeewool. I'm genuinely ignorant here. In what fashion was the total downward movement of the hammer die regulated? Or was it completely unregulated, i.e., not adjustable? I cannot imagine this latter to be the case; studying the mechanism leads me to think the thickness dimension of the wedge is the only real way to adjust the total vertical displacement.

It's difficult to imagine that this was not adjustable.

Only during this thread have I turned my thinking at all seriously into the mechanical process of minting. If it turns out that the die travel was not able to be varied, it's going to change my thinking on the "weak-strike syndrome," and I need to know.

I'm not messing with you, zeewool - I would never. You may take every word I type precisely at face value. I have, literally, not spent more than 30 continuous seconds thinking or learning about the physical makeup of a mint press until this thread.

Leaving for work; will consider this latest and carry on tonight.

SORRY, but I was answering another thread...and felt my answer did not relate to that thread but to this one..ISN'T obvious she don't know a darn thing about VAM's

YA sure....don't know a B1 from an a2
..sure... the interesting thing about coins, is the cause and effect mode... your just an average collector going to fill the holes in your book or you find some of the interesting varieties that Morgans have to offer... You don't even need to bother getting sucked into the VAM game to ponder...why this or that...or accept the doubling as it is listed in general this is the way of things....And it's not wrong for following the crowd or lists... for some of us, perhaps few of us..like to think out side of the box, and most of you don't even need to contemplate such things.......just follow what is in style...For some us, we are high minded, my meaning does not imply we know it all, but do seek to know the how and why of things.....and we review the general process of "HOW THINGS WORK", much like the book I bought years ago for my kids, it gave a general idea of how many things of this modern world operate.. some of us like that idea even more so we strive to understand the whole working process..and Question, the process with the acquired knowledge from our present learning......Many would say if A=B and B=C that A=C, how ever with the minting process there are many theories of "HOW THINGS WORK"..
Some things are simple and easy to accept..and others open the doors for questioning.....All in all ... how things work represents the cause and effect we find in Vams today...the cause we generally perceive of how the mechanisms work,,, moderate exploration of the mechanics behind the scenes has produced today" ideas of CAUSE AND EFFECT"

My point is TWO FOLD......general acceptance of today"s knowledge
And TODAY'S questioning of how things worked back the,,,SO I will put my foot in my mouth when we speak of FLOW LINES, and all of the mathematical calculations to predict where those will play out into all of the fields...... with the exception of ZEEWOOL'S POINT that this was 1800's techknowlgy(sorry can't speel)but the fact is the
planchet was within Thousanth's of its final size, there was no cookie expansion,,the flow lines were on the surface as effects show..
you can't melt a plancet (flowlines)(and uniformly pefect the whole unity the coins at 90 pieces per minute... roughly preesede at 3/4 a second per stamp...
the reason we question.. is not to put someone down, but rather find an understanding between the known theories..

And that reality is what keeps the repairman employed, and keeps the engineer employed trying to to design installer, maintenance man, and repairman proof equipment.

Point well taken and agreed with, trdhrdr007. There are incompetent folks in every profession, and it often takes someone who isn't to realize that.