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 Replies: 69 / Views: 47,508 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3283 Posts |
They have bigger fish to fry.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
751 Posts |
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On April 10, 2007, United States Mint Director Edmund Moy approved a final rule that generally prohibits the exportation, melting, or treatment of United States one-cent coins (pennies) and 5-cent coins (nickels), which became effective upon publication in the Federal Register on April 16, 2007. The final rule is based on the interim rule that was published on December 20, 2006, and it addressed public comments submitted in response to the interim rule. The United States Mint concluded the interim rule would be adopted as a final rule with certain changes based on the public comments and additional considerations. This measure has been implemented to protect the coinage of the United States by ensuring that sufficient quantities of 5-cent and one-cent coins remain in circulation to meet the needs of the United States. A violation of these restrictions can lead to a fine of up to $10,000, imprisonment of up to 5 years, and forfeiture of the subject coins or metal. The authority for implementing this regulation is Title 31 of the United States Code, Section 5111(d).
I'm confused by this. Has Congress granted the Mint Director the authority to create by fiat rules that have the force of law? Is that what Title 31 says? Can people actually be imprisoned for violating a Mint regulation? Are there limits to the kinds of rules the Mint Director can impose? Who has the responsibility to review the Mint Director's rules--the legislature or the judiciary? Is there a long list of non-elected federal bureaucrats who can create rules, the violation of which can result in fines and imprisonment? Edited by texasmick
05/16/2011 11:44 pm
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Valued Member
United States
284 Posts |
I don't understand why someone would want to melt their copper coins. First, you can probably get more for them in their minted state as coins on ebay or where ever. Second, I assume the melting service wouldn't be free. Would the service be cheap enough for you to get any melt value out of your stash? Third, even if you did melt it and got a brick of copper, what would you do with that brick? Say it has a stamp, "0.9999 Fine Copper - ACME Melting Inc". Is that suppose to entice me? I would say keep the cents as is. Roll them up and consider them to be little bullion coins. -- Boris |
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Moderator
 Australia
16829 Posts |
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I'm confused by this. Has Congress granted the Mint Director the authority to create by fiat rules that have the force of law? Is that what Title 31 says? Can people actually be imprisoned for violating a Mint regulation? The Mint Director doesn't have the authority, but the Secretary to the Treasury does. And yes, you can in theory be fined or imprisoned for it, and have your melted and unmelted coins confiscated. The Law in question states: Quote:(d) -(1) The Secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of United States coins when the Secretary decides the prohibition or limitation is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States. -(2) A person knowingly violating an order or license issued or regulation prescribed under paragraph (1) of this subsection, shall be fined not more than $10,000, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both. -(3) Coins exported, melted, or treated in violation of an order or license issued or regulation prescribed, and metal resulting from the melting or treatment, shall be forfeited to the United States Government. The powers of the Secretary and the remedies available to enforce forfeitures are those provided in part II of subchapter C of chapter 75 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 [1] (26 U.S.C. 7321 et seq.). It says "United States Mint Director Edmund Moy approved a final rule" because the person with the actual power, the Secretary to the Treasury, had presumably agreed to rubberstamp whatever the Mint Director recommended. Quote:I don't understand why someone would want to melt their copper coins. First, you can probably get more for them in their minted state as coins on ebay or where ever. Second, I assume the melting service wouldn't be free. Would the service be cheap enough for you to get any melt value out of your stash? Third, even if you did melt it and got a brick of copper, what would you do with that brick? Say it has a stamp, "0.9999 Fine Copper - ACME Melting Inc". Is that suppose to entice me? It would mainly be industrial purchasers of bulk scrap copper that would be interested in buying melted coins - people who are ready to put the copper to some practical use, not bullion hoarders or speculators. And it's the industrial-scale coin destruction that the law is intended to prevent. Having the law on the books prevents the metal recyclers from actively and openly soliciting for source material. Just like the Hobby Protection Act doesn't really stop people from making or importing fake coins that don't have COPY stamped on them - but it does prevent people advertising them for sale in the coin magazines. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
There's no reason to ban melting cents today. Most cents go from the mint to the bank to someone's sock drawer. Even if every copper cent disappeared from circulation tomorrow, it wouldn't affect commerce a whit.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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The Fed would rather recoup all the copper for themselves to melt and NOT let you/us do it.
That's at least one possible angle. It's pretty simple to separate copper and zincolns, so the fed could be doing it even as we speak. Once they've taken a pass through their stockpile and have nothing but zincolns to release, the ban can be dropped. This could be as little as a few months from now. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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I could not imagine melting these 95% copper coins, I liken it to "where did all the older silver coins from days gone by go, into collections, hoarded, MELTED......I hope to be able to find pre 1982 copper cents in years to come Won't matter if they're never legal to melt. Gresham's law (bad money drives out good) says copper cents will disappear from circulation. Even as a teen, I remember people pulling LWC, because they were "better" than LMC, just because "they're not making those anymore." |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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Silver is still on the books at the Federal Reserve as a debt of the united states, therefore is still legal tender. This is straight from a Secret Service agent I spoke with who specializes in this stuff. Staff Edit to remove offensive animation Yes, it is still legal tender. The last person I heard of who was prosecuted for melting silver coins was Pep Levin, and that was late 60s, early 70s. If it was illegal to melt silver coins, do you think refiners would do it so blatantly? Either that, or the gubmint hasn't been doing their job for 40 years. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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This pretty clearly states that, while there was a time period when it was against Treasury regulations to melt silver coins that is no longer the case. I'm pretty sure that futher research will find a new law (prolly passed after that page was made) prohibiting melting of cents and nickels. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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Still regardless of what anyone says, there really is no such thing as The Coin Police. No Silver Melting Police. No Copper Melting Police either. There are smelters all over the area by me and they take anything that is metal. There are no Metal Inspectors around any of them. And for sure no Metal Melting Police. It will take a grand total of one G-man with a warrant to visit a smelter and find a few hundred pounds of cents, and cent melting will come to a screeching halt. Heck, all it would take is a local cop following up on some stolen wire, and a prosecutor who wants to make a name for himself and some fine money for the city. I spoke to a big dealer about scrapping copper cents. This was before the recent law banning cent melting. He said he called half a dozen copper smelters, and none would take cents, even tho he had $20,000 worth. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
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It will take a grand total of one G-man with a warrant to visit a smelter and find a few hundred pounds of cents, and cent melting will come to a screeching halt.
Heck, all it would take is a local cop following up on some stolen wire, and a prosecutor who wants to make a name for himself and some fine money for the city.
I spoke to a big dealer about scrapping copper cents. This was before the recent law banning cent melting. He said he called half a dozen copper smelters, and none would take cents, even tho he had $20,000 worth.
Being to Mismatically minded your just missing the fact that the general populace of any country knows little to nothing of what their coins are composed of. No so called Gman would even consider wasting time doing that. A local cop followoing up on stolen wire? Your kidding. By me it's tuff to get one to follow up on house robberies, murders, etc. With well over 30,000 autos stolen per year in Chicago, who is even thinking of stolen wire? And he said HE CALLED them. Just how many people anywhere would discuss that via a phone call? If that were possible, the police could just call people and ask if they have committed a crime lately.  If so, please place yourself under arrest. Melting of coins goes on and on and on. To those that do that they are only metal. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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Is there a long list of non-elected federal bureaucrats who can create rules, the violation of which can result in fines and imprisonment?
Sure is, the EPA, IRS and OSHA come to mind. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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Melting of coins goes on and on and on. To those that do that they are only metal.
Silver and gold coins, fine. Foreign coins, fine. US cents and nickels may get melted here and there, but no refinery is going to risk the legal hassle and potential legal expense involved to melt 7 tons ($20,000 face) of cents, which isn't even ONE contract (12.5 tons). |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
284 Posts |
What I'd like to see is a new article of someone who got busted trying to melt his own coins. That would be be impressive!  -- Boris |
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Posted 05/16/2011 11:34 pm
