Ask Your Question Here.

Yeah CEO, that would be fine also, something needs to be standardized though (IMO).... the same line referenced though the point of the neck..... it doesn't matter if it is the green line that is centered in the neck or the red line that is off center..... but something standard would be a great improvement over just drawing a line starting anywhere, and taking it through the neck point, or just eyeballing it and saying it is correct...... human beings have proven over and over again that they just cannot do it consistently or uniformly.

I had forgotten all about the 1878 thing that you mentioned Gene, but if you can do an overlay of the different hubs (aligning Liberty's profile), you will see that sometimes the point of the neck points to the space between the denticles and sometimes the neck points directly at a denticle, (no matter what reference line you use, as long as you use the same one). The hubs differ in neck point to denticle relationship..... I had not even gotten into actual date placement on the dies.

The picture in the 4th edition that Zee has posted is really all that is needed, IMO, Once you have been doing some attributing and see the dates in relation to the denticles it does make sense, some times it appears to be off a bit, but in actuality practice will make it all fall into place for an easier, precise effective assessment of the point in which to start the count from, IMO....PS, Actually with practice, you really just need a good eye to dictate the place to start the count, no lines, no rulers, etc.Test yourself, look at the sweet coins in classic coins, the 28 days of Morgans, write down the dates and using your eye, also write down your opinions on the coins, near date, far date very far date, etc, then check VW and compare your answers, have fun, use only your eye.......

OK, I've changed it. The line drawn through the neck comes from the center of the obverse die, and the line through the date is parallel to the first. That's how I envision date locating in my head, anyways.

I fully buy zeewool's point - if we're going to split hairs regarding date locations, there ought to be a precise, definable starting point.

I was not calling for you to change anything here Dave.... I have no avenue to to one person who can add some realism to the paradox.... It is he who has termed these near, normal and far dates who has failed to make it clear as to what the rules actually are as far as determination..... a simple (but universal) reference point (starting line) needs to be added to the opposite edge of the coin from the neck V, and that line carried through the neck V point and into the denticles..... the denticles are the end point.... not the starting point.

The same is true of the need for determining mm position on the reverse of a coin..... Is it high, low, tilted, shifted left or right? Can anyone really make a solid call based on a tiny little grid only in the area between the wreath and the peripheral lettering? Someone needs to extend the lines of that grid to the denticles in each direction.

I actually read (for comprehension| the posts that others make.... I see that you do as well Dave..... Maybe I have been too wordy, too many pictures, I don't know, but the point of the obverse hubs differing in denticle to neck V location has obviously fallen on deaf ears or blind eyes except for yours.

Is there one denticle that is closer to the neck V than all other denticles? Maybe, on some coins, but not on all of them.

Is there one space between the denticles that the neck V points directly at? Maybe, on some coins, but not on all of them.

Is it possible for someone to determine simply by the minute space between the neck V and the denticles, the trajectory of the neck V to the denticles? Maybe, but that someone would stand out as someone of extraordinary talent.... I firmly believe that most people who feel that they can do this or only kidding themselves..... This would be an innate ability, and would have nothing whatsoever to do with experience...... For the other 99.99% of us, a long reference line would be necessary to eliminate doubt..... Who should be the one to designate that standard reference line?


I just posted that a minute or two ago, and wish now to retract it.... I just looked at this grid, and it seems to be the perfect thing....

The tops and inner edges of the D & O, the bottoms of the wreath bow...... perfect.... it needs to be standardized.

I had a fleeting notion a couple of months ago, and it had left just as quickly as it came..... noticing the date location picture in the "What is a VAM" post at the top of the VAM forum brought it back as I thought to myself, 'that doesn't look the way I remember it'.


Here is LVA's diagram.....




Now look what I have done to it..... I have overwritten in red certain aspects of that diagram.....

Imagine, if you can.... that everything that I have drawn in red is now on a small sheet of clear plastic (like half of a 2x2 flip)..... and that the neck V is to actual scale of a Morgan dollar neck V...... What could you do with that small sheet of clear plastic with those red marks drawn on it? What if the sheet of clear plastic was the exact size and shape of a Morgan dollar? Any ideas? You might think that you could use it as a template, a jig, an overlay, a gauge, a tool, whatever you want to call it...... you might think that with such a round piece of plastic with those red marks on it, you could set it on top of your coin, align the red neck V to the neck V on your coin, and no matter what the date, no matter what the hub, you would be able to discern date location with it...... exactly and precisely, and never be wrong... (I would think the exact same thing).

Could this not be done with the reverse as well? Why not?

Make your round, clear plastic template with the red grid as in the picture, line up the red grid to the tops and inner edges of the D & O, the bottoms of the wreath bow on your coin... and viola.... the mm is either high, low, normal, shifted left or right, tilted or whatever.







I used to have a VAM book about a year ago, and I remember seeing a rotation gauge in it..... 0 degrees was identified (both obverse and reverse) in the book...... the same principle could be used to determine rotation on a coin by making similar templates, again with clear plastic, one showing increments of 5 or 10 degrees from 0 all the way to 350 or 355 degrees..... the other template would only need one increment (0 degrees)..... set the 0 degree increment on the corresponding book call out on the obverse..... set the 0 degree reverse template to the corresponding book call out.... if they do not align perfectly, you have rotation that can be measured by the 5 or 10 degree increments on one of the templates.

Yeah Terry, I have heard of it.... never seen it or even had it described to me, but I imagine that the basic principle is similar?

Oh, how snooty and forward can one person be?

Really Mike, if you say you can, I believe you can..... I feel that most folks cannot though based on the great number of threads I have read where disagreement abounds on whether the coin is normal or near.... to me, this means that while folks may feel great confidence in their own eye to brain prowess, it remains a matter of subjectivity...... those little lines that separate the terms are very narrow, and I personally would feel far more comfortable using a crutch.





When you get too snooty or forward Mike, (trust me), I'll let you know...