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Penny Opponents Look To Save Dollars And Cents.

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Pillar of the Community

527 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2011  11:24 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TheDanMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I only posted the first of two pages, but the full article can be found here.

http://www.politico.com/news/storie...1/61442.html

The penny's value isn't quite what it used to be, which was never that much in the first place. It now costs more than a penny to manufacture one, with the coin's component metals -- primarily zinc, with a little copper -- becoming ever more expensive.

So with Congress this summer searching for every legitimate method of slashing the national budget and paying down trillions of dollars in debt, a small lobby of academics and politicos say there's no better time than now to finally sacrifice the humble, but costly cent.

"The penny has no functional use and is costing the country the country tens of millions a year to make," said former Rep. Jim Kolbe (R-Ariz.), who as a congressman last decade sponsored unsuccessful legislation advocating the coin's demise. "Doing away with it doesn't raise taxes and it doesn't eliminate services. That's a good deal."

Robert Whaples, chairman of Wake Forest University's economics department said, "the time is as ripe now as ever to once and for all get rid of the penny. Congress has to cut, and this is about as painless a cost-saver as there is."

The cost of making a penny has exceeded its face value for five consecutive fiscal years, reaching 1.79 cents in 2010, according to the U.S. Mint's most recent annual report, which also noted that the penny and nickel were produced at a loss of $42.6 million -- almost double the $22.0 million loss from fiscal year 2009. Mint records indicate the government has produced nearly 2.9 billion circulating pennies this year, through July.

Congress in 2010 ordered the Mint to research using alternative -- read: less expensive -- metals in coin production. The Mint next year must report to Congress its metal composition suggestions for coins, including the penny, spokesman Michael White said.

Could such metal meddling foreshadow even more change change?

Absolutely, says Jeff Gore, a physics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who, on the side, runs the special interest group Citizens for Retiring the Penny.

"The rising metal costs and the bad economy certainly provide a new opportunity for Congress to take a look at this issue," said Gore, who intends to redouble his anti-penny efforts. "I don't see immediate changes. But when we're spending money to make money, to me, it's a total no-brainer for them to move in the no-penny direction."

But what about the millions of financially struggling Americans who'd rather not round their purchase costs to the nearest nickel?

"With the economy as bad as it is, doing away with the penny is one of the worst things you could do to consumers," said Mark Weller, executive director of Americans for Common Cents, a pro-penny advocacy group. "There are certainly trends that have moved us away from cash and coin, but many people, particularly the poor, use cash as their primary means of payment, and such a change would disproportionately affect them."

The zinc industry, which primarily funds Americans for Common Cents and employs Weller as a lobbyist, has been particularly willing to put cash behind its penny preservation push.
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Enlil's Avatar
Australia
560 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Enlil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is funny or is it a joke, can't remove a single denomination like you could in the 1800- early 1900's.
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We got rid of the 1 and 2 cent coins in 94.
The 5 cent is next.
Which is a good thing.
They are now collectable and your car and pockets are not bogged down with these.
Seriously if you wanted to buy a can of coke with these it would take you ages to count them out.
With the demise of the 1 and 2 cents prices were rounded out to the nearest 5 or 0 AT THE CHECKOUT not on individual items.
You either gained 2 cents or lost 2cents.
I know the economy in the states is tight but is the loss of 2 cents at the supermarket going to make you want to jump off a bridge.
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TheForce's Avatar
United States
4867 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  07:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheForce to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Instead of eliminaing the penny right off, why not eliminate the dollar note and make use of the billions of dollar coins that are sitting around in vaults around the country? If not, just even stop the dollar coin program all together?
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nod2003's Avatar
United States
3294 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  08:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No reason not to do both. And the malarky about struggling Americans not wanting to round to the nearest nickel is absurd. Worst case scenario, they would be out what maybe $10-$20 a year if all cash purchases were rounded up. Maybe not even that.
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BadThad's Avatar
United States
19931 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  09:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Almost every new member seams to find something about pennies being eleminated. Links to those stories are rather constant and posts about getting rid of Pennies goes on and on and on and yet, LOOK, there are still Pennies (Cents). AND will be until our government decides if there should or shouldn't be some or none. They just made all those commemorative types of Pennies for the 2009 anniversary so obviously no one in our government is going to do anything about Pennies.
I'm sure in about a zillion years there will still be posts on this forum about Pennies being gone or soon to be. THEN, the same people will go to a bank and get a box or piles of rolls of them to go through. Companies like Dansco and Whitman and all the others will still be making Albums and Folders for them since they will still be here.
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10029 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



Quote:
You either gained 2 cents or lost 2cents.
I know the economy in the states is tight but is the loss of 2 cents at the supermarket going to make you want to jump off a bridge.


Let's do some quick math.

With gas at 3.759 a gallon, and 50 gal/wk = 187.95
If we get rid of pennies, state Tax in PA - which is .06 on a dollar would be .10 on a dollar (if you REALLY think the legislature would lower the state tax to .05 instead of raise it to .10, I have a cheap bridge in Brooklyn to sell you - I also compensate for this later in the posting).

So gasoline expenses increase .04 more for each of the 50 gallons/wk = 2.00. So the cost of gas per month increases only 8.00 more (as if they already are not getting more than enough!)

Lets look at a house payment per month:
1250.00 * .04 more for tax = 50.00 more per month.

Running total of 58.00 so far. But what about food?

Let's say 800.00 a month (family of 4!) = 32.00 more per month just in taxes on current prices without figuring in the new, higher-adjusted cost per dollar of the food!

Running total of 90.00 per month or 540.00 per year!.

I will stop there and leave out utilities, car, other taxes, and the other myriad of expenses a person has nowadays - not including cable/satellite, cell phone bills, etc.

So far, without all the rest of the bills, I have payed out 90.00 more/month - or the equivalent of driving down the highway and randomly throwing two silver ASEs out the window per month.

Take the following from the article:

Quote:
http://www.politico.com/news/storie...zz1VI6defgB:

according to the U.S. Mint's most recent annual report, which also noted that the penny and nickel were produced at a loss of $42.6 million


Divide the 42.6 million by the US population and you will see it would cost us 121.00 per year per person to make all nickels and pennies - iftax dollars were used to make coins - they are not! Even if we were paying out of taxes, I still would rather be "throwing away" 121.00 per year instead of 540.00!



Let's say I have made a grave error here and cut the estimated (leaving out many bills/expenses) cost increases in half to 45.00. I still am throwing out at least one ASE that could have been mine. This totals 12 ASEs that I would have had in my pocket that are now in someone else's hands.

One step further. What do we suppose will have to happen to minimum wage once the penny is gone? Since prices will go up, there will be a need to raise wages. What happens when wages are increased? Prices are increased further or cutbacks in quality/quantity are made. Hence my buying power is again reduced.

It is easy for a legislative body to lose touch with the reality of everyday life for us who are not making 150K+ per year. It is also easy to overlook totals when money is spent one penny at a time. Pennies add up.

BTW - anyone who wants to get rid of pennies care to start sending my 12 silver eagles per year



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Edited by Earle42
08/17/2011 09:42 am
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ljenkins990's Avatar
United States
406 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  09:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ljenkins990 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did a little quick research and found that since 2001, over 70 billion cents have been minted total from Philadelphia and Denver combined. That's a lot of coins, and I imagine the vast majority of those are still in circulation. And, it doesn't even account for the additional billions minted before 2001. If the government is so serious about finding ways to save cash, why don't they just declare a 2 or 3-year "holiday" from cent minting? There's more than enough coins to sustain their need in commerce, especially given how many transactions are done electronically now.

The answer to the question, of course, is that our government isn't really serious about trying to find ways to save money.
Edited by ljenkins990
08/17/2011 09:57 am
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If we get rid of pennies, state Tax in PA - which is .06 on a dollar would be .10 on a dollar

Why? Elimination of the cent does not mean that the tax rates would change, there is no reason why they should. The rates stay right where they are and the final amount, with taxes included is then rounded either up or down to the nearest nickel. Half the time they will round up and half the time it rounds down. In the long run it evens out to a zero change. And taxes do get rounded. That .06 tax you are paying on that gallon of gas comes to 22.5 cents. Where are you getting that Half Cent piece to pay the tax? You aren't because it gets rounded to 23 cents. If the gas was $3.749 the tax would be 22.4 cents (anyone got four mils I can borrow?) and the tax is rounded down to 22 cents. You say that if they decided to raise the tax they would have to do it in nickel amounts? WHY? What about communities today that have rates of 6.25% or 8.5% etc. Do they have supplies of Half Cents or farthings on hand so they can set taxes at odd amounts? No, they just set the rate and the round the final amount. So eliminating the cent would have NO effect on sales taxes. So much for the argument that we have to have cents as long as we have sales taxes.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187671 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  10:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
No reason not to do both. And the malarky about struggling Americans not wanting to round to the nearest nickel is absurd. Worst case scenario, they would be out what maybe $10-$20 a year if all cash purchases were rounded up. Maybe not even that.
I agree, and most places will round down just to make their customers happy. A lot of places around me already do this.

Quote:
Let's do some quick math.
Your math is just plain wrong!

Taxes are already rounded to the nearest cent. There is no reason why they cannot be rounded to the neared nickel or dime.


Quote:
Why? Elimination of the cent does not mean that the tax rates would change... So eliminating the cent would have NO effect on sales taxes. So much for the argument that we have to have cents as long as we have sales taxes.
A well written response, Conder.

A lot of people also fail to realize that the loss of the one cent coin does not necessarily mean the loss of the one cent denomination. Electronic transactions, which are the vast majority of all monetary transactions, can still be to the cent.

As we all know, electronic transactions have fees and many places will happily round cashes prices down knowing they are not paying a fee. As I said above, a lot of places here will round their totals down when paid with cash.

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nod2003's Avatar
United States
3294 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Case in point, Australia had a 5c piece as their smallest currency unit as of 2005 when I was there. Australia used to have 1c and 2c coins, but they got rid of them in 1991, and they seem to get along fine today. As a note, only cash transactions are rounded to the nearest .05 there, debit and credit cards still go to the .01
Edited by nod2003
08/17/2011 11:27 am
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187671 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Australia used to have 1c and 2c coins, but they got rid of them in 1991, and they seem to get along fine today. As a note, only cash transactions are rounded to the nearest .05 there, debit and credit cards still go to the .01
No reason why we cannot do the same here.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  4:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Case in point, Australia had a 5c piece as their smallest currency unit as of 2005 when I was there. Australia used to have 1c and 2c coins, but they got rid of them in 1991, and they seem to get along fine today. As a note, only cash transactions are rounded to the nearest .05 there, debit and credit cards still go to the .01

Better yet just move to Australia. Then no more worries about our Pennies, our Nickels and any of our coins.

Quote:
Let's do some quick math.

This one makes little to no CENTS.
Gasoline prices are excessively different all over the place. Home mortgages too very massively and so does their interest rates. Sales taxes too vary so much and by so many different places there is absolutely no way of saying anything about them. Actually even the price of a loaf of bread can vary by enough to drive you nuts. $0.59 to several dollars a loaf.
AND all this has nothing to do with Pennies anyway. They will be here regardless of any of the so called math problems.
And I've said this many times. Soon enough there will be no coins used anywhere. Maybe on some distant planet but not here. Plastic will rule.
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nod2003's Avatar
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3294 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wells Fargo wants to start charing you $3 every time you use their debit card. If all the banks start doing that, I see plastic dying rather quickly.
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United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2011  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Wells Fargo wants to start charing you $3 every time you use their debit card. If all the banks start doing that, I see plastic dying rather quickly.


Then don't use Wells Fargo. Bank of America and Chase both advertise a 1% return on all purchases. BOA also gives you 5% back on all school supplies until the end of September.
Not sure of Wells Fargo but I get advertisements all the time from places that want me to use their credit cards and all sorts of rewards for doing that.
So what you saying is sort of like the guy that goes to a doctor and says every time I lift my arms, they hurt. The doctor tells him to just don't lift your arms.
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