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 Replies: 44 / Views: 6,417 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5614 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I believe he is talking about a certain known rare VAM that could be something else...Not sure what VAM it is..but am interested.. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
Gene, That makes 2 of us? Thanks.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I am talking about the 1878 VAM-86, there is a few places that looks like the VAM-80 and we all know it shares the VAM-80 Obverse but is supposed to be paired with a different reverse that hadn't been found until after the VAM-85 was discovered. There is one picture I found and the crack in the picture looked just like the VAM-80 I have, the VAM-86 just has some die gouges that are not present on 2 of my VAM-80's but one of them looks pretty close. The pictures of this VAM is so poorly taken it is hard to compare and hard to study but I wouldn't be surprised if some day it is deleted and is found to just be a LDS of the VAM-80. I could be wrong and I really hope I am but would love some better pictures to be sure and since this is the only one that has been found it probably isn't going to happen |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
It seems a lot of folks do not fully understand my issue with, or even my definition of, "die poop". In the few die studies I have done, yes, I use what some would call "die poop" to differentiate between dies. This helps sort out the VAM listings, and create new VAM listings. So "die poop" can be helpful in the right situations. My problem is when "die poop" is used to list a new VAM, or sub-VAM when it was on the VAM all along, but not listed originally. This then effectively eliminates the original VAM listing, meaning no coins will fit into the old or duplicated listing. The crux of this is VAM pollution, that can likely NEVER be fixed. VAM listings with no coins that match. So how helpful is that? I have refrained using examples because it could be construed that I am calling out an individual if I was to do so. However, I will highlight one example, to show what I am talking about. This is not an indictment of any one person. Take the 1904-O VAM-18A. The base VAM-18 Die #1 is known for a dominant (and cool) die gouge at the junction of Liberty's neck and chin. This marker is all that is needed to identify this VAM. The obverse die with this gouge was only used with a single reverse die. The "die-is-the-die" is in play here. So someone looks at the reverse, and notes three die scratches on eagle's right wing. So bingo, the VAM-18A is assigned. ALL VAM-18 Die #1 coins have these three scratches. So effectively, with the assignment of the VAM-18A based on what I would call die poop (virtually every 1904-O VAM has similar die scratches on the reverse, so this is nothing unique or new for the series), the VAM-18 Die #1 becomes obsolete. You will never find a coin that will fit into the VAM-18 Die #1. In addition, there is no way to undo this situation. So I repeat, what good did it do? Sure, somone got a "discovery coin" out of it. But is it really a discovery? I say "NO". Hope this helps explain my frustration. Edited by VAMsforMoney
09/15/2011 02:17 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
well spoken, ONE MUST REMEMBER...the Morgan series is well over 100 years old, yet it has only been studied for some 40 years, of these forty odd years, few really had the abillity to study them as a WHOLE GROUP, which today people are doing....THE MINTAGE is very high in most years, and it will take some time to really get to the bottom of what VAM is what VAM..and as VAMSFORMONEY POINTS OUT...usually in the beginning only the attributable points were looked at as discovery pieces, and the whole of the coin for possible "SAME DIE POOP" ...Die poop is simply a means to equate things that happened and when, in the dies life progression...from when it was new, and as it became to outlived(deteriorated beyond use) or to be used any more... While I agree in every ones frustration, it is a usefull tool to use in determining defects that happen in the dies life.....Unfortunately many miniscule die poop is now being used to bring forth "new discovery coins".. There are PRO's and CON's to this Idea.... The pro's are FOR the years, which are few, such as 1878...the die poop can determine EDS MDS or LDS die states as the dies were worked over to "keep them fresh"..the tooling marks in this instance can be considered features to decerne the true die states for coins that have been really studied... The CON's are:....this opened the door to allow unstudied years to have the rights and privilges of a new designation when that particular years has not been extensively studied... THE RESULT is, and will be over turned or re-assigned VAM listings...I don't see this FACT changing...the listings will continue and be over turned, as they are studied more in depth......Gene |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
VFM, I can honestly state I relate to your feelings and that is Exactly my point, things seem to be getting out of hand, Well spoken!!   |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
yes I agree, die poop is when a coin is actually a VAM that has already been discovered but has die chips, die gouges, or any little thing like that. In my opinion if the Obverse die and the Reverse die is the same, it should be called the same VAM just a EDS,MDS and LDS of that particular VAM. But as we all know not even LVA remembers each VAM so there is going to be mistakes and that is where the collectors needs to step in that are focused on that series and get those duplicate VAM's deleted once they are found to be an already known VAM, just in a different die state |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
Bryan, That also is a very true statement, However while I agree that the people who are in the position to do so should rally to delete those "minor" differences from already known and numbered Vams. I personally have no clue as to who/how this is done, but the things you pointed out being slightly different, whether being a EDS, LDS, or ULDS coins, are along the lines exactly, of the title I posted for this thread, where will it all stop!!! I do feel who other than LVA is entitled or has the authority to change the way the Vams of yesterday and the ones to follow are listed or recognized, IMO, No one. People can suggest and recommend, but WE all know who is "The Man".......  |
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Pillar of the Community
2224 Posts |
 Well stated! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
RECALL RECALL RECALL...manufactures recall of discreptancies... YES YES and YES, but this will not happen until the year/mint involved goes under the knife.... What does this mean? People I am not "chicken little" the MONEY that's involved has already been spent on the die poop...Big money...and TPG's attributions...TODAY die studies are being evaluated, an a small term for some vams..case by case point... and revisions are being made...Don't think the whole system is under the same scrutiny..YET IT WILL BE......our questions, My questions and THERE questions will eventually be evaluated as the studies are continually going on....ONE can not over turn the whole of the system simply because our over throw CAN NOT BE PROVEN.. much like the BUST halves which have fewer known attrocites..die crap....ect..The Morgan series will yet take far more years as its TRULY being studied now, and revisions are being made daily... I hate the "BUBBLE IDEA" but it will take some time for the system, which is good, and will correct itself..as more people become involved and study the series of any given year....As with Alan's study on the 02-o4's has shown... He was able to find the commonality of many supposed vams to related and killed listings, for they were of the same family. in fact the virtue of FAMILY, my meaning,, is that they are not new, but snapshots of the dies life... Not being all new and different... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Where or when will it all stop?simply when someone collects enough of that year say 300 coins and to evaluate where or what VAM they fit into, and from this, the dies life span and what occurred for that specific VAM...It won't stop until, these studies are made... "HOW EVER" one must understand "NO ONE" will send "ME" 300 coins to do a study... These people get some "DONATION COINS" they will return and have to buy the rest out of pocket JUST SO YOU KNOW the deal and what these people do to help us all along... |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
I am talking about the 1878 VAM-86, there is a few places that looks like the VAM-80 and we all know it shares the VAM-80 Obverse but is supposed to be paired with a different reverse that hadn't been found until after the VAM-85 was discovered The cracks at STA are conclusively different, and it's visible even in the poor images provided. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Quote:
he cracks at STA are conclusively different, and it's visible even in the poor images provided. I am glad you said that because it took me taking pictures of my 3 I have here at the house to see what you were talking about. I was getting ready for a whole discussion about this but after I took the pictures of mine I can see what you are saying now SD, The cracks are different in this area. The crack from the "T" is at the top of the T and on my VAM-80's its almost in the middle of the top bar of the "T". And the crack from the "S to the "T" has an upward curve where the VAM-86 has a downward curve. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
I originally thought this topic was of a borderline interest level, from the input I see, I am glad to of placed the topic in the forum, for ALL to see, plenty of great opinions.......... I wanted to ask, to date how many 85's and 86's are " known", Thanks..... |
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Replies: 44 / Views: 6,417 |
First Page
Posted 09/12/2011 11:26 pm
