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 Replies: 44 / Views: 6,420 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
I am talking about VAMS, I know LVA sets the standards for the "discovery coins', but in my opinion, I feel the smallest little possible gouge, or clash, or die break, noted and sent in to later find becomes a new find is getting out of control and IMO, is taking away from the entire hobby. While I am sure there are people who make a living at dealing/selling these "new discovery coins", and they would probably disagree, I am of the opinion, things are well out of hand, any comments from the members, especially the seasoned more knowledgeable ones? Thanks for the input, Mike........  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Hi Mike, I can relate too your analogy here, how ever I have to take a deep breath and look at the bubble from the outside.. Wear-as; the begginings of Vamming were Notable clashing and doubling, die brakes ect...acceptable errors to become known as VAM's...it started in the 60's with few collectors at that time....the time when die's and there errors or kinds of errors were established....in these past 40 plus years, many years have many known listings in which studies of the year and the number of dies can be linked into a die progression...many are in the back round doing these studies which do result in discovering listed vams as duplicates or proved to be "different die states of the same coin...in its die life or the die progression so to speak, I know you know this but some do not... that being said, many are getting the pimples are getting listed when the pimples themselves were never worthy of an attribution listing....They themselves are but mere "SNAPSHOTS" of a given coin during its die life...They are merely pieces of the dies JIGSAW puzzle that are being gathered to differentiate KNOWN vams for the purpose of determining its EDS or mid or LDS stages.....This is due to the fact that some coins, are EXTREMELY RARE in its LDS stage as well as some coins are Extremely rare in its EDS stage....determining what stage you have is what its all about...some dates have but few known examples in its EDS state(the same can be said for some LDS staged coins)... while a known N clash be verified its also possible only a few coins had the single clash(a clash is when a coin does not go into the press and the dies strike impressing some features onto each of the upper and lower dies)... In some cases do to the feeding mechanism which resulted in the first clash, a second malfunction could have taken place just after the first clashing...and the rest of the coins will bear the double clashing throughout the rest of its dies life unless the mint thought to fix the errors.. in this case only a few coins had the first clash will be EDS of the said VAM designation, and highly sought after if its truly rare....these small dots, pimples and gouges are merely additional secondary points of reference to validate the things that have happened to the coin in its lifespan , BY THEMSELVES they don't designate a VAM, but they do fill in the jigsaw puzzle of the die progression... SO what does this all mean? it only means that as time goes by the missing pieces will be filled in over time and the die progressions for that year will be KNOWN... IT MEANS of the known vams that have been categorized for there MAIN features NEVER listed the pimples that are on them still but where not listed, so in the end they will be eliminated known discoveries, and the die's and there progressions will be known... DISCOVERY pimples...Most of the time, they don't relate to MONEY coins....even if its a R7 coin never means you can cash in on it... I n the end they simply relate to die states, which in many cases are VAM worthy..Gene |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
I have had my share and more for a guy that started Vamming a year plus or so ago. The ones that I have to my credit I do not see as as (Alan) would say Die Poop. But I have see a few that are not something I my self would look for or for that matter even pull from a box and look up. I have not tried to sell any of my Discovery coins and have no plans too. As far as killing the hobby I do not feel that way. I also remember tring to find my first one or two coins, it was a big deal to me back then and really got me into it. Today it is far less important to me personally, but I do understand the new guy looking and dreaming as it was not that long ago that I was that GUY! Everyone here was and is a big part of where I have come from, and I thank all of you! Morgan, Dave, Gene, OZ and even Zee AKA Lou all of you have helped me learn and in return I try to pass that on to others like the people before me. I have been lucky and I know it! I have picked a MS Donkey tail I own the only MS Vam-27 long arrow shaft so luck has been following me. The thing that hit my interest at first was to find something new! Right wrong or indifferent that is the truth. I think it is that way for many people. Based on what I have been credited with there are still very Neat Discoveries still out there waiting that are not "DIE POOP" As far as what is listed by Leroy I can't change it and do not try. I have killed a few Vams in the last year and I think that is a process of looking closer at other VAM's and that is a good thing! Here is a list of my discoveries I think they are neat "But they are mine" So I do not count. Please feel free to tell me what you think. If you feel one is die poop say it, it will not make me feel bad or get mad. This is a very Good topic and should be talked about. 1887 P Vam-5b top 100 1884 P Vam-8g 5 letter clash 1882 S Vam-1b concave Obv 1900 O Vam-54a Big break rev 1904 O Vam-43 wide doubled zero 1899 O Vam-16b Obv over polish fields "sunken" 1882 O Vam49 doubled 882 this is a tweener to me 1880 P Vam-67 doubled 1-80 ditto 1881 O Vam-47 doubled left 8 and cap I like the rust spots on this one 1889 P Vam-3a Sunken fields Really neat 1899 O Vam-7b Die brake Date |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5614 Posts |
Russ, I appreciate your placing me in a group of what I like to reffer to as the people who taught me some if not MOST of what I have come to know today, I am more like a practicing vammer. The other people you have mentioned have helped the hobby grow in more ways than one, sharing their knowledge, always trying to help others learn the reasons for what is, and what things really are NOT, Dave, an outstanding soruce of Morgan vamming knowledge, OZ, who has taken the time with many to explain in a rational, educated manner, always helping members to better understand the hobby and help it grow, ZeeWool, another plus to the hobby for all her insightful comments, Alan, is just on another playing field all together, writing a couple of books, and countless hours of time spent researching and sharing it all for the better of this great hobby. There are plenty of others I feel are always assisting members to help them understand and grow by sharing the knowledge for us all, Bryan, Harry, Conder, Vampicker,Coxe, Brian R, and the list goes on and on. I do think people in the back ground are doing amazing things, I mean to say they are usually the people who most do not see or know just what others have or are doing to grow the hobby. I have been bitten by the VAM bug and have done some die state progression research and am still amazed where it all has taken me to become more 'knowledgeable ' with the entire vamming addiction. Gene you as WE all know are well above the average vammer and always have some good points to add to most discussions, keep it up.... I am not placing any negative attention on the topic just thought it was a area that was worthy of discussion, I will also say Russ you my friend have come a long way in an amazing short period of time, Be Well, Mike........ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
Mike, no thanks is needed and concerns like this need to be placed out there. Festering thought that are not addressed always become problems later. On VAM World this could get ugly as your view would put Alan on a soap box and his view is not wrong, as feelings are never wrong....They just are! I find myself in the middle on this topic. The search is what got me to this point and I now enjoy my dollars more then ever. I would not wish to deprive anyone from finding the same fun that this has become. I find it FUNNY that the first coin I posted Dave ID'ed as a 1878 S Long Nock and I did not know what that was...And now I hold 1 of the very few MS graded ones known.... If that is not a kick in the pants nothing is LOL Russ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
OH WOW, you both are online as I am..hard to believe.. until I post this LOL...Mike...Russ, you both are in the same time frame of discovering vams what the are and...FIGURING what this all means...not just a bug..as it is for some...we have say 2 years into the 40 plus years prior to "US"....and let me tell you its "US" who still look forward to the future of vamming...most people don't realize you have MORE KNOWLEDGE in front of you than any one else ever had, book pics and such which Identifies what you have.....to most it only shows you what you have...TO OTHERS..YOU see you have something different.....I'll leave it here...
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The ever-tightening noose of hairsplitting varieties is one you choose to put your own neck into. If you want to collect the coin, by all means - there are some fabulous Morgans out there whose variety is irrelevant.
But if you want to collect the variety, never forget that we still don't know enough of the total picture to have even formed an accurate opinion of what's important and what's not. Heck, we're years from even knowing if it's even possible. If the job is ever finished, and that's a big if, it will be the single largest body of cohesive numismatic information ever accumulated.
So, yeah, it's mostly die poop, but it's that die poop that will ultimately differentiate the varieties which have no smoking-gun attributes.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Well said Dave, one has to remember...AND ITS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, just as some who post what is there favorite coin or what not...to some...It means WHAT IS YOUR MOST PRECIOUS OR MOST BEAUTIFUL coin..you all can drool over and .Some will post there most beautiful coin, while others will post what grandma gave me when I was young....YOUR Collection is what you want to make of it...the good the bad the culls, the ugly, to fill the holes of our folders.... I MUST REMIND YOU..this is not a thing such as "keeping up with the "Joneses" YOUR & OUR collections are what interest you....you have several Morgans and find THEY ARE ALL VAMS...I think Super Dave hit the head on the nail some time ago....Collect what interests you...THIS hobby of vamming which I love, is more about knowledge than what I hold in my hand.....The Morgan series is far from being figured out, but we are getting there..It will still be some LONG time before its all catologued without discrepancy. sorry cant speel.... MOST JUMP on the band wagon not knowing what they have, yet think they have something so rare so they can make the money....the VAM WAGON...Look people....enjoy what you do for your hobby....forget you found the latest 1943 copper lincoln...Vams are the same...if you don't know what your doing, then what? it takes time and patience in a time when the vamworld is under going changes...BE prepaired to change with it.... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
If you like the coin, go for it, if not, pass........
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Valued Member
United States
305 Posts |
Hello all, I am not in any way a Vammer but I am a collector. If you can find something that will make you a dollar than go ahead, if you find can buy and put in your collection than go ahead. Many collectors don't think this is right but to me to each there own. I have bought many things below and above book. But to me it depends on if I like it enough to keep then I keep if I don't care and can make $1 on it then goodbye and let someone else enjoy the
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Valued Member
United States
305 Posts |
beauty of it. Like Picasso said " I do not seek, I find" and that is the way I coin collect. But, always remember if you like or seek, than we will pay, and I believe sooner or later every collector will do this whether they know it or not. Thank you for your time and enjoy your collecting .
Edward M.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2373 Posts |
This is an excellent thread, one that would have been hijacked in another forum. Vamming for me has been an exciting and informative venture. Why do I do it? Because I can. Because I want to learn and enjoy the benefits of knowledge and most importantly (to me) when I leave my collection to my children they will be in possession of not just a quantity of dollar coins but ones of particular interest. I don't forsee them being in the position to sell but should that occur, they will market items for which demand overshadows the supply. There are some great comments above that I hope will inspire more collectors to always be on the hunt for new and peculiar items to add to their collections. "Knowledge is King" and a great place to start is on this forum. Noel
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
Noel, I appreciate your input, excellent point and to the next and eager to learn collectors, information is everything, knowledge is one of the most valuable tools any collector could hope to obtain and put to use....... I have seen some "static" on another forum, I see things some things just do not change.Thanks again......
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I have been questioning one particular VAM that from what I have seen may be another VAM with some die gouges but I have not found this particular VAM and as far as I know only one has ever been found (which is amazing since its a 1878 Morgan). From the poor pictures I have seen of this VAM it looks like it could be the original VAM the Obverse shares but since I have not seen one in hand I am just going by the low quality pictures I have seen. It is really aggravating when you are trying to complete a set of a specific type and these things are marked as different VAM's but that is just the nature of the beast I guess |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
Bryan, Care to share more info? Now that I am more than wondering......
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Pillar of the Community
2224 Posts |
No comment except I DO appreciate the help and support of you guys!  |
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Replies: 44 / Views: 6,420 |
Posted 09/09/2011 11:54 pm
