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Ferdinand VII 8 Reales Cataluă±a C/S Y2 Manilla+chops Fake?

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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2012  1:50 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fernando-VII-8-..._3015wt_1093

I think that one was briefly discussed sometime ago, but as it's still on ebay, and as someone else is telling me he things it is genuine ...
A nice coin to study :)

Here are my thought about it :

* The counterstamp was applied with too much force on the coin, usually this was done with a hammer, not with a power driven tool (with such power)
* Proper mixed silver shouldn't break like that
* The chinese countermarks seems to have been recently applied as well (you can see no circulation wear on them, some even show the bare metal flashing under light)
* What was a cataluña coin doing there ? Those were very scarce even in spain ... moreover the coin is very worn, I'm not a specialist of those counterstamp - but is that possible between the date of minting of the coin and the date of the counterstamp ? (I collect spanish coins up to Ferdinand VII)
* The second "foreign" conterstamp look odd ... check out the facebook group, we have a nice gallery of fake counterstamps there.
* And to finish, the look of the chinese countermarks don't look that familiar (either their design, their position, and so on)

Here is what another specialist told me about it :

Quote:
I specialized in philippine counterstamp for 5 years now. I am very familiar with the countermark die characteristic. I can identify whether it is a fake or not. This one I think is authentic in my opinion. I know what the chinese fake c/m looks like and this one is different. The stamp is also not recently because it have an evidence of gradual wear.
Edited by MathieuMa
07/30/2012 02:46 am
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Pertinax's Avatar
United Kingdom
2135 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2012  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pertinax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The countermark on the reverse looks like the crowned PM used for Mozambique.

What would a Philippine coin be doing in Mozambique or the other way round ?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2012  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MathieuMa The YII stamp does look very good. If it not real it is a very faithful copy.

The YII was applied from 1834-1837. The depth of the punch is EXTREME in my opinion causing the split. I agree that properly annealed silvber should NOT split like that and the Philippines did in fact anneal the coins first.

I do NOT agree at all that extensive wear has occurred AFTER the YII was added. In fact the split extends into the percussion on the reverse and there is a fin that in my opinion SHOULD HAVBE WORN DOWN FIRST.

The Mozambique stamp on the other hand was applied in 1889. That punch while set much shallower STILL made a percussive depression on the reverse which shows no more nor less post strike wear.

The Chinese stamps are all widely spaced - TOO NEAT a layout. They are all far too uniform and they repeat on BOTH sides too often. I agree they look simply too new.

So even though the YII looks like a good imitation of a punch, I believe the coin is a Modern Fabrication.
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2012  04:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, that's an odd coin. Thanks again for your precious analysis.
And as you say, the chinese stamps were done by merchant to certify coins - they had no reason to stamp the coin on both faces.
That coin would be interesting to check in hand.

In any case, it's not the first time I see dodgy coins from this seller ...
I'm never sure as I never had them in hand - but I had doubts more than once on some of his coins.
Edited by MathieuMa
07/31/2012 06:04 am
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