Quote: Not so fast. I read that article several years ago. I was, and still am, quite skeptical of its accuracy. At the time Coin World also ran a story about Big Tree, as I recall. Somewhere (can't locate it now) there was a photograph published which supposedly showed the Big Tree press. It did not appear to me to be a surplus US Mint coin press. It was in fact, a hydraulic press, not a mechanical press.
There is no doubt that Big Tree produced numerous dubious coin products. But I highly doubt that they ever had an actual surplus US Mint coin press. I will change my mind on that if anyone can provide concrete documentation on said coin press. None of the articles I ever read provided any such evidence.
Wow. If you want to go there how about explaining this? One of Big Tree's dubious products was a Morgan dollar with a CC mint mark in a year in which the US Mint didn't produce coins with that mint mark. I haven't done a comprehensive study but it's more likely than not that those CC mint marks were also on Morgans with dates outside the range of production. How are your coins that are dated in years the US Mint didn't produce those coins different? Any sort of reasonable explanation of that would go a long ways towards validating your skepticism.
Yes - no reason to apologize on entering a discussion.
As you can see, we can debate on here, remain friends, and still respect each other. This is one of the reasons I really enjoy CCF as compared to other online places.
Quote: Wow. If you want to go there how about explaining this? One of Big Tree's dubious products was a Morgan dollar with a CC mint mark in a year in which the US Mint didn't produce coins with that mint mark. I haven't done a comprehensive study but it's more likely than not that those CC mint marks were also on Morgans with dates outside the range of production. How are your coins that are dated in years the US Mint didn't produce those coins different? Any sort of reasonable explanation of that would go a long ways towards validating your skepticism.
Well, that is not really where I went. Where I went was making the claim that Big Tree never had a surplus US Mint coin press.
But to address your question ...
The Big Tree "1886-CC" (for example) Morgan dollars are:
not a Fantasy Date (genuine 1886 Morgan dollars exist); not struck over genuine Morgan dollars; not legal tender and never were; not made of silver; often deceptively marketed; undocumented by the maker as to mintage quantities and diagnostics; so cheaply made that the maker could spend them at their apparent $1 face value and still make a profit; not accepted in the marketplace by knowledgeable numismatists (resale value is nil); produced by anonymous person(s).
The Carr over-strikes are:
actual fantasy dates (years that were never originally issued); struck over genuine Morgan dollars (which puts them in the category of altered coins, not counterfeits); originated as a legal tender dollar (no legal tender claims are made for the over-strikes, however); made of 90% silver (of course, since they are over-struck on genuine Morgan silver dollars); always marketed with full disclosure; fully documented as to production quantities and diagnostics; produced with a high degree of craftsmanship; generally accepted in the numismatic marketplace (re-sale prices realized tell the tale - they almost always exceed the issue price); produced by a known numismatic figure who previously designed coins for the US Mint and uses a documented US Denver Mint surplus coin press.
From what I can see the only difference between the big tree counterfeits and the Dan Carr "overstrikes" is that the Dan Carr coins are Silver, they are better made and they are made by an American. No matter how you try and pretty up the description of the Dan Carr offerings, If they were made anywhere else they would be treated as counterfeits.
Quote: Many of the modern issues are simply "Fads" and at the end of the day they will probably only be worth Melt But they don't have the potential to be used to scam a buyer with their supposed rarity like the DC coins (and I use that term loosely here) have the potential to. The DC offerings are NOT coins they are tokens or medallions with NO official credentials and IMHO are a scam. They are just as bad as any other counterfeit or knock off on the market at the moment that has the potential to do damage to the collecting community as a whole.
Quote: From what I can see the only difference between the big tree counterfeits and the Dan Carr "overstrikes" is that the Dan Carr coins are Silver, they are better made and they are made by an American. No matter how you try and pretty up the description of the Dan Carr offerings, If they were made anywhere else they would be treated as counterfeits.
No matter how much you try and denigrate them, prizes realized in internet auctions tell a different story.
PS: Here is one for you - a "1937" fantasy date Australia sixpence. These were privately struck circa 1994. In the last 22 years, where is the supposed "damage" that things like this allegedly would cause ?
Quote: PS: Here is one for you - a "1937" fantasy date Australia sixpence. These were privately struck circa 1994. In the last 22 years, where is the supposed "damage" that things like this allegedly would cause ?
There are many different Edward VIII fantasy coins out and about, From Crowns to Maundy pieces. As collectors of brit AND other commonwealth coins use the obverse as the main area to determine the grade of a coin they are acutely aware that real Edward VII coins shouldn't exist. These Fantasy coins are vastly different to your restrikes in that the obverse design is unique and was NEVER used for any circulating British coinage. Whereas the reverse designs on your fantasy coins are well known and have appeared on Millions or circulating coins. So the odds of a Edward VIII fantasy coin being mistaken or scammed off as being a genuine coin are extremely remote But with your restrikes that use a common and well known design of a circulating coin regardless of the fictitious date and that they are the exact same silver alloy do have the potential to be mistaken or misrepresented as a genuine coin. The differences between the two examples as quite obvious. As you say that you are a collector yourself So you should also understand the risks to other collectors that your restrikes pose.
I forgot to add that neither the obverse nor reverse designs of the Australian 6d that you used as an example was ever used for a 6d design in Australia. There were also some countries that DID issue some Edward VII coins (Fiji,New Guinea,Ireland,& some of the Indian Princely States,most notably Kutch,as well as East Africa.) But these are Not particularly rare and there isn't much value there for counterfeiters to bother with.
I'm not sure of the harm, but that "coin" is not a sight-to-see for me. There were patterns made for Edward VIII and his visage is much more appealing.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020 In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020 In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
Quote: Well, that is not really where I went. Where I went was making the claim that Big Tree never had a surplus US Mint coin press.
I'll agree that wasn't really where you went. Where you went was to publicly state that you don't believe the articles published by coin publications. That pretty much speaks for itself.
I'm not going to address your list of "differences" individually. I'm a hard core capitalist. More power to you for finding & capitalizing on a niche....but call a spade a spade. The bottom line is anyone reasonably competent with the right equipment (which doesn't necessarily have to be US Mint surplus) can duplicate US Mint coins with dates they weren't produced in.
And anyone with and idea that has pen and paper or a comuter with MS Word can write a book. What's your point? The art is in the high craftsmanship along with he ability to "put all the pieces together"
Quote: There are many different Edward VIII fantasy coins out and about, From Crowns to Maundy pieces. As collectors of brit AND other commonwealth coins use the obverse as the main area to determine the grade of a coin they are acutely aware that real Edward VII coins shouldn't exist. These Fantasy coins are vastly different to your restrikes in that the obverse design is unique and was NEVER used for any circulating British coinage. Whereas the reverse designs on your fantasy coins are well known and have appeared on Millions or circulating coins. So the odds of a Edward VIII fantasy coin being mistaken or scammed off as being a genuine coin are extremely remote But with your restrikes that use a common and well known design of a circulating coin regardless of the fictitious date and that they are the exact same silver alloy do have the potential to be mistaken or misrepresented as a genuine coin. The differences between the two examples as quite obvious. As you say that you are a collector yourself So you should also understand the risks to other collectors that your restrikes pose.
I forgot to add that neither the obverse nor reverse designs of the Australian 6d that you used as an example was ever used for a 6d design in Australia. There were also some countries that DID issue some Edward VII coins (Fiji,New Guinea,Ireland,& some of the Indian Princely States,most notably Kutch,as well as East Africa.) But these are Not particularly rare and there isn't much value there for counterfeiters to bother with.
So what you are saying is every Tom, Dick and Harriet will know that this 1937 fantasy strike is a fantasy strike because the design slightly differs from the circulating strikes? So I guess it is totally out of the realm of possibilities that someone could attempt to pass this off as a rare die variety to some unsuspecting individual that has no access to the internet to perform any sort of due diligence.
Quote: So what you are saying is every Tom, Dick and Harriet will know that this 1937 fantasy strike is a fantasy strike because the design slightly differs from the circulating strikes?
Maybe you should have done some research because then you would have known that the design is completely different NOT slightly different. Here are examples of all 4 Monarchs that have appeared on Australian sixpence coins. You will notice that the reverse design remains the same throughout the period that Pre decimal 6d coins were minted and that the design is VASTLY different to that on the fantasy 1937 coin. As such The chances that the fantasy could be mistaken as a genuine 6d are incredibly remote.
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited. Contact Us | Advertise Here | Privacy Policy / Terms of Use
First Page
Previous Page
Posted 01/31/2017 7:54 pm
