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 Replies: 335 / Views: 33,282 |
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Valued Member
United States
171 Posts |
Quote:I do agree that many counterstamped coins had nothing to do with advertising at all, The Australian Holey Dollar and Dump is a great example. There are also many examples of coins being used as planchets for new coins. These were created out of necessity at the time. If the Dan Carr overstrikes were a completely new design and not copies of existing coins then Yes I would consider them as art and as such collectable and I understand that he has created some of his own designs and that is commendable and they do look nice as well. But to restamp a Morgan dollar as another Morgan dollar with a different date isn't art it is copying or plagiarism The Chinese counterfeiters do this all the time (and they are getting increasingly better at it) and they are not called artists, They are called Crooks. I have absolutely NO issue with people creating their own coins or Medallions as long as they use their OWN designs and not someone else's. Everyone will decide for themselves what constitutes "art". No one person gets to decide for everyone else what "art" is, except maybe in North Korea. Also, in the USA, most coin designs are not "someone else's" - they are public domain. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
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Everyone will decide for themselves what constitutes "art". No one person gets to decide for everyone else what "art" is, except maybe in North Korea.
Also, in the USA, most coin designs are not "someone else's" - they are public domain.
Report I am struggling here to understand how an exact copy of a design that you yourself did NOT create can be considered as Art. Regardless of the ownership of the design it is not one you have personally created, you have simply copied it and changed the date. |
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Valued Member
United States
171 Posts |
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Keep in mind that is someone's hard work and certain artists can be very sensitive about people being critical of their work. This is true. However, I am not one of the sensitive types in that regard. Over the years I've received all kinds of praise as well as "hate mail". Some of the latter was received well before I ever over-struck a single coin. I enjoy making coins and I would continue doing that regardless of what people thought about it. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
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I enjoy making coins and I would continue doing that regardless of what people thought about it.
I have seen some of your work other than the coin copies and yes they are very nice designs and you do have the artistic ability to create works of your own design. Why waste that talent churning out copies of another artists work? |
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Valued Member
United States
171 Posts |
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I am struggling here to understand how an exact copy of a design that you yourself did NOT create can be considered as Art.
Regardless of the ownership of the design it is not one you have personally created, you have simply copied it and changed the date. A fine level of performance or craftsmanship can constitute "art". It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "design". A modern violinist reciting Mozart might be considered an "artist" if they have a high level of skill in playing, even if they did not compose the piece. |
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Moderator
 United States
190135 Posts |
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Everyone will decide for themselves what constitutes "art". No one person gets to decide for everyone else what "art" is, except maybe in North Korea. I agree. Art is supposed to be subjective.  |
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Valued Member
United States
171 Posts |
Quote:
I have seen some of your work other than the coin copies and yes they are very nice designs and you do have the artistic ability to create works of your own design.
Why waste that talent churning out copies of another artists work? YOUR view that it is a "waste of time" is not shared by everyone. I am a coin collector too. If a potential item interests ME enough in that regard, I will produce it. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4421 Posts |
Quote:
A fine level of performance or craftsmanship can constitute "art". It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "design". A modern violinist reciting Mozart might be considered an "artist" if they have a high level of skill in playing, even if they did not compose the piece.
Well said .... Note that I've used the words artful creations. The analogy with music is a good one. There's no takeaway here from Bach, Beethoven or Morgan. IMHO, the Carr pieces not only celebrate but accentuate the designs of Morgan and other designers. Sign me "a fan." As for the use of the Carr pieces to perpetrate some fraud, that's a possibility with most any coin or other commodity, regardless of origination. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
I posted earlier in this thread. One of the recurring themes seems to be that part of the legitimacy of these "coins" is due to their being produced on a US Mint press. We can put that argument to bed. Mr. Carr is NOT the only person with a genuine US Mint press. Here's a link to an article by Numismatic News dated May 23, 2011: http://www.numismaticnews.net/artic...re-deceptive For those of you who don't care to click on the link here is the relevant portion of the article: Quote:
Dr. Dubay also showed photographs of one of the largest fake coin factories in China, the Big Tree Coin Factory in Fujian Province, owned and operated by Lin Ciyun. The presses in this factory were originally used in a U.S. Mint facility, then transferred to China in the early 1900s for their coinage production needs. Later, in the mid 1950s, the Chinese government scrapped the presses and sold them to private buyers. Mr. Lin bought at least some of the presses and now uses them to produce (by his admission) over 100,000 forged coins per month. With the assistance of a handful of expert machinists, he is able to strike coins at exactly the same pressure and technical specifications as those used in 19th century U.S. mints. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10048 Posts |
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I posted earlier in this thread. One of the recurring themes seems to be that part of the legitimacy of these "coins" is due to their being produced on a US Mint press. We can put that argument to bed. Mr. Carr is NOT the only person with a genuine US Mint press. Legitimacy is not the issue here for me at all. Except in the context of his press being a legitimate US piece of history. To me though, he could have been using another press and I still would like the overstrikes (and still would not call them "legitimate" US coinage after he is done with them. They are made on legitimate coins on a legitimate US press. To me this all adds to the fun. The press origin is icing on the cake. Is someone was using a former US press to make 1 oz. rounds, I might also like their bullion better for this reason. A machine from past American history being used just appeals to me. And I am now more angered at the fakes from China. Knowing they are using historic American machinery with the deliberate desire to cheat people makes the deed even worse in my opinion. How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2Edited by Earle42
01/30/2017 9:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4211 Posts |
 Earle. Altho I do not own any of his pieces I greatly admire his work. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7390 Posts |
Earl is correct. Icing on the cake. For instance, the Nevada state museum strike 1oz rounds with a CC mint mark on the original coin press #1 from the Carson City Mint. And those sell for many multiples over spot.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12477 Posts |
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There is No Battle and I am pretty sure that last time I looked we are Not Fighting.
We are simple debating the legitimacy of these Dan Carr restrikes. I apologize for intervening. "...fighting a lonely battle." was a generalized description of the conversation/debate - as in no one else seemed to share your viewpoint. I feel like I do share it, but have nothing further to say. I'm not an expert on Carr issues. In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
Edited by spru
01/31/2017 03:54 am
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Valued Member
United States
171 Posts |
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I posted earlier in this thread. One of the recurring themes seems to be that part of the legitimacy of these "coins" is due to their being produced on a US Mint press. We can put that argument to bed. Mr. Carr is NOT the only person with a genuine US Mint press. Not so fast. I read that article several years ago. I was, and still am, quite skeptical of its accuracy. At the time Coin World also ran a story about Big Tree, as I recall. Somewhere (can't locate it now) there was a photograph published which supposedly showed the Big Tree press. It did not appear to me to be a surplus US Mint coin press. It was in fact, a hydraulic press, not a mechanical press. There is no doubt that Big Tree produced numerous dubious coin products. But I highly doubt that they ever had an actual surplus US Mint coin press. I will change my mind on that if anyone can provide concrete documentation on said coin press. None of the articles I ever read provided any such evidence. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
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I apologize for intervening. All is Good, Absolutely NO need to apologise Mate. It's rather good to know that I am not the only CCF member that isn't a paid up Member of the Dan Carr Fan Club   |
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Posted 01/30/2017 3:13 pm
