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1652 New England 3 Pence?

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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  03:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A Tool and Die maker (my Uncle was one) could turn out many of these if so desired; and yes-there was a firm in the UK that copied (and nicely) colonial Silver. There is nothing about the NE pieces make them difficult to counterfeit (Hammer and Punches are all you'll need)-you just won't 1) have a die-match with genuine examples, and 2) you'll have a very difficult time matchung Genuine NE SAa. I talk about "spit and acid" because that's one way how it's done, and not many people are aware of that.
Valued Member
larsjan's Avatar
Netherlands
53 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  05:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsjan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@whatdowehavehere
It seems like you want to label my coin as counterfeit regardless of arguments and evidence and convince everyone. Fine if you are in it like that, I'm not worried about it but just wonder why you put so much energy into it.
Maybe it would be an idea to apply to Stack's, this would save them a lot of time as you can conclude from my amateur photos within a few minutes that the cracks are contrived, the scratches are new, the patina has been created with spit and other means , and so on.
What I do worry about is that you know people who can easily fabricate such a patina and you also have a good recipe for this. Then in my opinion you are busy with the wrong intentions.

As I have said, years ago I bought an antique coin cabinet. I bought the cabinet from a woman, her father had once bought it at an antiques auction in the Netherlands and it had been there for at least 15 years before I bought it.
In principle, the purchase was only about the cabinet, the content was a side issue at the time.
The price for the cabinet was decent so that I could still earn nice on the sale, so no reason for the saleswoman to place a counterfeit coin in the cabinet, let alone spit on it to also get a patina on it.
I myself am also sure that I have not spit or tampered with it.
Obviously it is possible that it has a recent scratch on it because I did not attach much value to it in the beginning and just threw it in a tray with other coins that was on my desk, so it has been deposited here for at least a year before I started working on it.

After my first contact with Stack's, there was already a great belief that this was a genuine example.
Later they performed a detailed analysis of my coin and compared the punches with the MHS specimen at a very close level. It appeared to be a perfect match accounting for some variances in the striking.

@kbbpll
@that coin dude
I am also convinced that the similarities and accuracy are too great for a forgery.
We also have to see that the coin has a diameter of only about 19mm, which makes according to my calculations that the legs of the three I's are only half a millimeter wide.
In my opinion, such precision cannot be reproduced in these small dimensions.

Yesterday I was studying some photos of NE coins and found something in a punch of a NE Shilling auctioned by Heritage.
In the NE punch of my coin you can see faint lines, I also found this line in the punch of the NE Shilling.
Could these be toolmarks, prints of the tools the original stamps were made with at that time?


1652-New-England-3-Pence?
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  07:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just wanted to add some food for thought, just to show the art of a true craftman, if applied to the correct medium and aged 100 years , it would be very convincing. This copy is realtively new and painstakingly handmade using punches individually made to make a die. Just like during colonial times. There will alwauys be talented craftman no matter what century we live it. Imo without more proof I believe this coin may never truly authenticated. The evidence might not exist.
1652-New-England-3-Pence?
Valued Member
larsjan's Avatar
Netherlands
53 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsjan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@steviegetz
I agree, there are definitely enough professionals with the skills to make a die that can be used to make a convincing forgery.
In the meantime I have seen enough examples of this and your coin is a good example of that too. However, in yours I see convincing differences between the real one and the forgery.
The letters are clearly different, if you would lay them over each other you would see that no letter is a clear match. Something which is the case with my coin and which seems impossible to me to achieve on such a small scale, even by the most talented craftsman.
In addition, if it were possible, it would take so much time and effort, so why save only 1 copy. Then more should be known I think.
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good luck!
Edited by steviegetz
04/24/2021 08:45 am
Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To larsjen: when I was a kid, a dealer sold me a coin that he knew was NG. Ever since then (50 years later) I'm still on a mission. I'm only pointing out Why it should be thoroughly exmined, because several things "don't add up" That newish scratch with the old toning over it is a big Red Flag to me.

History: I was involved in the founding of The Colonial Coin Collectors Club, and have been doing this for a long time. Heritage wanted to hire me, but I made more by "picking them off" than I would have by working for them.

I hope that it works-out for you. It would be a cover coin for a catalogue and bring a Million Dollars at least.
Also, Ancient Coin collectors are very familiar with intricate, artistic renderings that are barely 5mm across. These die-cutters did that without magnifying lenses
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/24/2021 08:55 am
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  08:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This piece was considered genuine for a long long time, now its considered a contemporary copy
1652-New-England-3-Pence?
Pillar of the Community
Slerk's Avatar
Russian Federation
1557 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slerk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm certainly not an expert, but don't you think that the method of minting at that time did not guarantee the creation of 2+ absolutely identical coins. From this it follows that each coin is unique and each of them can have its own characteristics. Other angle, drawing offset, etc. Probably partly because of this, the experts can not immediately give an accurate assessment
Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2021  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's where the coin's DNA, so to speak, comes into play. If the OP's coin's silver alloy content cannot be matched to that of known NE silver coins (the MHS 3D would be best), then it looks grim for "Mint Genuineness"

As far as Each Coin Unique unto its own, technically that's not so-but I know what you mean. Otherwise, no one would ever have been able to assign Die Variety numbers to any of the NE silver coins. This series has been studied ever since the time of Edward Frossard, Sylvester Crosby et al. A proposed New Variety (not a mule, with two uncatalogued dies, and not found on this continent) of one of the denominations is Newsworthy, but it's also suspect at the same time. Remember: we are not looking for Identical, but just something that's Identifiable As...
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/25/2021 12:42 am
Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to larsjen: the reason that you don't see more of the NE coinage, esp. the 3D, is that it wasn't a very big mintage to begin with, and its dissemination among the Public was such a disaster, that those not lost, hidden or, in your case, exported were turned-in to be melted to make the first of the Willow and Oak Tree coinages.

Case in point: we know that the Shillings at least were exported; I had a mid-17thC coin guide book, published in London, describing a new shilling type the author had seen, presuming it coming from 'Norwiche'...
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/25/2021 01:04 am
Pillar of the Community
kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  02:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If the OP's coin's silver alloy content cannot be matched to that of known NE silver coins

At the risk of sounding irritable, for god's sake man, the XRF results for the OP's coin are on page 3. Which I also pointed out immediately following your previous comment: "If no one can get the Spectral Analysis to match known Geniuine NE silver, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for it". Please go to page 3, look at the results, and then by all means please comment further on whether or not it matches colonial silver coins.

I'll ask again - does anyone have an example of a counterfeited NE threepence?
Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  06:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, the results for the OP's item has been made known; now we see if it matches, like a fingerprint, the specs of genuine pieces. Wanting to accomplish anything by matching the OP's coin vs. another counterfeit NE 3D (if one can be found) is a futile effore; it wouldn't prove anything, as the source(s) for counterfeit silver is unknown-unless, of course, you had a ton of the same ones... then you could probably figure it out

I don't know what the specs for NE silver are; otherwise I would post them. We do know that old, worn and clipped Mex City/Potosi Cob silver was the primary source for NE+ coinage. If there is an SA match, then break out the Champaigne...
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/25/2021 09:33 am
Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After some phone calls, and really nosing around some on-line, it seems that alloy specs are not available for NE Silver. If the Brain Trust at Stack's go this route, and could convince the MHS to make available its 3D for alloy determination, that question would be answered, and that answer would go a long way to yea/nay the OP's item. You're not going to do that by die variety analysis, with accompanying stories, or really much of anything else. If the OP's item has a chance of being Genuine, then its, and the MHS coin's "DNA" will tell us that.

If someone has access to both a Philip III-IV of Spain silver colonial cob not sea-salvaged, and a process to determine an alloy... that result would be interesting to see here
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/25/2021 2:07 pm
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Im guessing it should be close to 925 silver. May find some clues in Louis Jordan's or Christopher Salmon's books on Ma Silver
1652-New-England-3-Pence?
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
New england shillings did circulate in to the 1700s also, theres evidence of this from the coins that were salvaged from the wreck of the hms feversham (1711) and oldest copys of massachusetts coins have been dated to about ca 1746.
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