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1957-D DDO? Lincoln Wheat Cent

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1161 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  03:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cladhunter13 to your friends list
Hmmm from the pic provided of the date...it does appear to be doubled. The date appears to be much larger then one would expect. I could be wrong and the fact that the 9 and 5 are partially filled can give it the appearance of doubling.

Can not wait to hear what the others have to say.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1161 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  03:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cladhunter13 to your friends list
I tried to enlarge the pic but the detail is to grainy for make to make a decision. The doubling does appear to be flat. A clearer pic of the date would be nice.

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United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list
Machine Doubling on the date and a die chip on the B. It also looks like a die chip on the 9 and maybe on the 5.
John1
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United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  06:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
There is no such thing as calling a coin 'struck twice' a 'double die' - it would be called 'double struck'. Using the term (or anything close to) 'doubled die' in reference to ANYTHING other than true hub doubling is not only confusing, it's flat-out wrong.

The coin in this thread is Machine Doubling from a loose die and nothing else. It's a rather common thing on 1957 cents.
New Member
18 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SinceWhen to your friends list
@coppercoins - Thanks for the clarification! I didn't think there was a difference at first... What would you call the Wisconson extra corn leaf error? (double-struck?) (mis-print?)
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list
The Wisconsin quarters with extra leaves are the result of a die scratch/gouge, made either intentionally or inadvertently.
Valued Member
474 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  12:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FlipOfACoin to your friends list

Quote:
coppercoins: The coin in this thread is Machine Doubling from a loose die and nothing else. It's a rather common thing on 1957 cents.


Exactly what description should I use for this coin. Unlike many persons who incorrectly claim that a coin is 'doubled,' I do not want to misrepresent the coin. THX
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
The die chips on the date were caused by using the dies past normal retirement. One way to rell this is Machine Doubling is the thinness of the 9. The metal was damaged during the striking. If the coin was drom a doubled die, the devices on the date would be wider (Class 6) or have notching.
1957-D--DDO?-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum..._BIG_ONE.jpg
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...DDR_Date.jpg
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...LC__DATE.jpg
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...op_008PR.jpg
On a doubled die the DIE is what is doubled. On Machine Doubling the die is normal, the die movement damages the coins it strikes in varying degrees from strike to strike:
1957-D--DDO?-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent

Pillar of the Community
United States
1944 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2012  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dbrablec to your friends list
i think I might have a near relative...if not a twin. (very similar - at least)

1957-D--DDO?-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent

1957-D--DDO?-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent
Valued Member
United States
58 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2016  09:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lincun1909 to your friends list
stupid question: Coop are those pics of 1955 "poor man's " Double die?

Does Machine Doubling have any added collectibility or value to a coin?
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United States
3516 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2016  09:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dustin6 to your friends list
The poor mans doubled die upsets many expirienced collectors because it is just Die Deterioration and is actually very common on not just the 55's but all dates in the 50's. It should not generate the premium it generates. John Wexler says that if you were to search a BU roll you will find many examples of it.

As for Machine damage, IMO there is a premium when it is very extreme, but others say it is not collectable whatsoever.
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United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2016  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
What makes a doubled die coin?
1. A coin being struck?
2. A die that is deteriorating?
3. Die movement during the strike?
4. A die that has hub doubling that shows doubled devices on the die?

Business strike coins are only struck once. So that could not cause what we are seeing on the OP's coin. (answer #1 is incorrect above)
Die Deterioration happens on all dies until they are retired. We will see the devices that are closest to the time to be affected first on the sides that are facing the rim. They do not create a coin that is a doubled die. (answer #2 is incorrect)
Die movement during the strike happens after the strike when the die dies bounce/hop/slide when the die is raising. This damages the devices, thus why I refer to it as Machine damage, as technically nothing is doubled, but damaged. (answer #3 is incorrect ) While we see the Die Deterioration is an issue with the OP's coin, it is not a doubled die, just a coin struck with a very worn die. Also the coin is showing evidence of machine damaged after the strike and thus is not a doubled die. The fourth answer is correct from up above.
4. A die that has hub doubling that shows doubled devices on the die?
So the first coin to the last coin struck with a die that has hub doubling created on the die, will make doubled die coins.

Does Machine Doubling add any value to a coin. I would say no as it is very common. We see them selling on ebay though, but people have to buy something there cause they feel it has value. A lot of times the junk coins will sell for more than a true doubled die at times. Give me two things on a coin. A true die variety in BU and a great die state coin. To me that is where the real value is.

Hope this answers the incorrect answers that were post above on this thread.
Edited by coop
07/09/2016 11:22 am
Valued Member
United States
58 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2016  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lincun1909 to your friends list
thanks dustin and thanks coop, you guys both are great for sharing your infinite wisdom. I still have coop's chart on Varieties and Errors open as a reference. Still alot to wrap around my head but cool nonetheless. I found some more varieties and maybe an error or two. I will take pics and post as soon as I get a chance.


ps... So where does the doubling on the die come from? the die makers?
Edited by Lincun1909
07/09/2016 2:10 pm
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2016  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
Have you ever used a rubber stamp? When you try to place a second stamp over a previous stamp you get something similar. You get widened letters in a certain direction, above or below the previous stamp. But in the case of dies, the hub that is used to make a die (which is positive) makes a negative (the die) to strike positive coins. When the alignment is not exactly the same, or a different hub is used, or a hub is warped, the die will show this on the coins struck. The classes of doubled dies indicate what happened during the die making process. So when you look at the 1972 doubled dies, the first 8 on the coppercoins list are all class 1 dies. Why are they called class 1?
1957-D--DDO?-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent
1957-D--DDO?-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent
They are variations of the rotated CW or CCW rotation of the hubbing process. Each variety was hubbed differently. When attributing these dies, you need to consider what is different for each one and see how your coin matches with the attributed dies listed. Each device would have to line up, just like the attributed dies spreads. We just can't say that ours is the most valuable one. We have to check the spreads and see which die it matches up with. So back to the question, the hubbing alignment plays a large part to what makes a die a doubled die. It is not a striking issue, a die aging issue, the hub doubling is on the die making it a .......doubled die Hope this helps answer the question.
Valued Member
United States
58 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2016  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lincun1909 to your friends list
Thanks coop for your input on this one. Always a learning lesson. I have to keep referencing some of the stuff you post, still alot to grasp, understand and learn. thanks again.
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