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1882 CC VAM Help Please

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 Posted 08/19/2012  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list
I took a few more of the lip clash. I don't seem to have the ability to capture how it really looks. I does look exactly like the picture on VAM world (VW) under VAM-2C. Not just the lips but also the polish/cleaning marks are above and below the lips .. just like the VW pics.



1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
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 Posted 08/19/2012  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
Those aren't die gouges - they're the massive multiple rotated clashes of the 2C series. Silly, aren't they?

Question for you: is the reverse rotated at all, relative to the obverse?
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 Posted 08/19/2012  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list

Quote:
Question for you: is the reverse rotated at all, relative to the obverse?


If it is rotated it is just slightly .. I might have to get into the safe and get another one to compare ..
I could go either way .. slightly or not at all ..



1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

It is starting to get dark out .. so I lost some light

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 Posted 08/19/2012  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list
I have to say I am not very good at this .. I stopped looking when I got to VAM-2C

I just now looked at VAM-2C2, the coin I have has a die scratch (not sure if that is the right term) that runs from the left wreath, through two leafs on the branch that the eagle is holding then back to the wreath.

Edit .. went back to VAM basics .. that line might be part of ("transfer from the front of the profile")

I can see it better in hand than my pic shows

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
Edited by GR58
08/19/2012 8:55 pm
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 Posted 08/19/2012  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list

Quote:
Those aren't die gouges - they're the massive multiple rotated clashes of the 2C series. Silly, aren't they?


Mr. Dave I guess silly is a pretty good word .. after you posted that, I looked harder .. to try and make out what made the marks .. that is pretty cool ..

And what I thought was die gouges I am guessing are the cap. One line was a die clash .. the second was another die clash when the die is rotated a little.

I am thinking it is something like that
Edited by GR58
08/19/2012 9:25 pm
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 Posted 08/19/2012  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
Yeah, the die rotated over the course of the multiple clashes. Later versions (2C3, 2C4) had a rotated reverse die and you'll undoubtedly find earlier rotated versions since the clashed rotated. I'm thinking yous is 2C2; is the break behind the cap complete? Can't quite tell from the images.
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 Posted 08/21/2012  07:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list
Sorry Dave .. I missed your last reply somehow.


Quote:
I'm thinking yours is 2C2; is the break behind the cap complete?



I have looked back and forth at my coin and the 2C2 on VAM world and it seems to me theirs is a little more complete of a cap break. But very close to the same
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 Posted 08/21/2012  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
So we'll call it 2C1-1/2.
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 Posted 08/21/2012  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list

Quote:
So we'll call it 2C1-1/2.


Maybe I am just looking at it wrong. I will get it out of the safe and study it some more.

Tomorrow I think I will go to the camera shop. I saw on another post that I might be able to buy a adapter for my Cannon DSLR so that I could use my old Cannon A-1 lens.
I am thinking I might get better pictures that way.
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 Posted 08/22/2012  11:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list
Well this is a case of the die is the die. Your coin is a mid die state of the Vam-2c1. When looking at many VAM's what most of us look at is a full die state. This is to say if the money coin is an EDS "early die state" then it needs to be and EDS not and EDS plus a little bit. The same go's for the later die states in most other VAM's.

Progression set collecting in some types of VAM's may bring a small premium on some but not many. When flipping coins keep in mind this, GSA holder coins in the 1882, 1883 and 1884 are very common. All but a less then hand full of "Rare" vams can be found in them.

In the 1882 CC you will find the Vam-3d listed as a Rare "R-7" coin but if you look on E-bay you will find 4 to 10 of them every week. It looks like all of this type never went into circulation and are no-where near as rare as it was listed. So look deeper into things before jumping, it could save you a bunch.
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 Posted 08/23/2012  01:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list
One of the questions I always have, AS DUE to the lack of real detailed photo's...especially in a die state progression is "Where is the line drawn?" between die progressions...
Thanks Russ for your explination....but I do have one one question
as it is a die study thingy...
due to the lack of real good close ups.from the originator of this post...I have had to go back to VAM 2c where the break started.......but VW does have an error in there number 4 photo, stating VAM 2a shows a cap break..
this is incorrect for the published VAM 2a series...
BACK to VAM 2c, where the break originates.......which shows the traditionalclashing on the reverse photo, one would EXPECT the neck clash to be present.... VAM 2c1 notes the die break and the neck clashes have been polished out,
with up to 4 clashing known at this point, but polished out,,,,Pics on VAM World VAM 2c1 do not show
any cap break, as it was removed due to polishing.....it is also known as the "9 degree's" rotation
...yet the break "RE-emerged" WHY? because the break above the die was
filed down, but the crack below the surface, was still there and "would resurface" in production....
So we know VAM 2c2 has the breaks and also still once again shows the evidence of many clashes.after polishing,
which would mean it again had more clashing for it to be evident....
Now my hole point of this is 2 fold.....
one to follow and understand the progression even if all of the photo's are not present on VAM World, yet our pictures still re there to fill in the blanks....
one of the statements was, there "could be more varieties still out there",
VAM 2c3 the dies were reset to Zero degree's rotation....
One of the first things I SAW, was when I looked at this coin,
and reviewed all of the photo's and descriptions. was evident in all VAM World photo's,...
is that the Cap die break, is evident from NON close up photo's...........
further more....its always in only one spot, as it should be,,,,
yet the originator of this post photo's from a non close up photo shows "another possible break"
about 1/2 inch up the cap........no other photo's show this
here is the originators photo, once again...

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
notice the overall OBV picture from a non close up perspective... the cap break is eveident as shown
from all known VAM World photo's as expected whith one exception...there is something above the break, perhaps an additional break not yet known?
here is the originators semi close up

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
now here is the copied photo he has posted,, enlarged and cropped to show the above possible new break above the cap.......

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
I am willing to go out on a limb here..."not to say so", but rather...in the die thingy progression states, Many important little things are not photoed or taken into account until we question them! That is why we ask such things... The author of this post, is just an average person who we must ask for macro photo's they may not able to produce, for those of us who delve and research into pimples if you know my meaning here... But here is the difference between VAM attributions...
And I must question...with a macro mind... G
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 Posted 08/23/2012  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list
Gene,,,,

The only person that can give any given VAM an A or B and such is Leroy Van Allen. As too running progression you have to keep in mind that a given VAM Set, lets say Vam-6 and then Vam-6a and then Vam-6c and then Vam-6d may not run in progression as an A,B,C and then D. This type of listing is based on discovery "Not" by progression.

The 1880 O VAM 6 type is a great example of this. The Vam-6 and 6a are one die pair, the Vam-6d comes next and then the Vam6c share the same obverse die but have a different reverse die. It also gets mucked up with the Vam-49 use of the obverse die used in all of the Vam-6 types and then we also have the used of the Vam-6c smashed up Reverse die used in I think the Vam-11a or something...I cant remember off hand.

As far as the 1880 O VAM 6 types we have 3 different shared die pairs using the same Obverse die. They are the Vam-6 die pair 1, Vam-6a again die pair 1 "clashed with letter transfer"

We now have a die swap where the reverse die was changed out giving us the Vam-6d "same obverse die as the Vam-6 and 6a" different reverse die. NOTE this die pair the reverse die has "NO" clashing "BUT" the Obverse has a very light wing clash off the neck that can be seen in the pre-polished die state in the Vam-6a Die pair 1 "with letter transfer"

SOMEWHERE in between Vam-6a die pair 1 and the Vam-6d the "dies where swapped out again" Giving us the famous Vam-49 This die pair shares the same Obverse die as all Vam-6 types and has a light single clashed obverse die. This lets us know that it was paired between the Vam-6a and the Vam-6d.

For some reason the same reverse die was again paired up with the Vam-6d and the dies clashed about 3 more times making it a very well clashed obverse and reverse die pair. It is at this point the Obverse die was Retired ..."BUT the Reverse die was next used on the 1880 O Vam-11a. I saw one of the Vam-11a coins in PCGS plastic in MS-63 that was not clashed on the Obverse...it was way cool but over priced by about 200% so it did not come home with me.

Sorry for being long winded, my main point was and is that rarity and progression is not always right by the listings. Vamming is a work in progress much like the striking of a coin. We just have a lot of die life left before everything is known.
Russ
Edited by twohawks
08/23/2012 10:02 pm
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 Posted 08/30/2012  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list
Gene, Russ,

This forum IS very lucky to have people like yourselves, The knowledge alone is exemplary,!!! I have come upon this topic,because this date is also on my radar and I am thinking I have seen this "new or unknown", clash to the VW community.
I will double check my thoughts tomorrow when I can get to my coins. IN A GSA HOLDER :)....Mike
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 Posted 09/01/2012  01:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list
Thanks Mike,,,for your thoughts, I personally am not disagreeing with Russ,, I am only pointing out that without
clear and clean close ups, we can not assume it is or its not, beyond the VAM 2c stage where there are some changes...I am not talking about a "new VAM designation", but rather due of new photo's, if it could be a further LDS state listings in its VAM designation...Beyond Vam2c...
AS always
I always enjoy your comments, Russ, Mike...Gene
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 Posted 10/27/2012  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list
I am thinking about selling this coin to help fund a gold coin purchase

Anyone care to give a opinion on what it is worth?
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