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1840 Durango Pattern?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2012  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I understand the debate over Pattern versus "forgery" it happens with a few specific designs in this series and personalities often get involved.

The Birmingham area in England was the source of innumerable varieties of both real and counterfeit issues for decades. They often employed Sheffield plate and the design is well within their capability (in fact it is a bit crude for their standards in 1840).

Durango did experiment with French dies in 1830-32 and in 1839 those hubs were worn out so finding a replacement source is very likely in the 1840 time frame.

I vote pattern but conditionally. A coin of this design was in fact made as a pattern, but I am suspicious that it has been copied as a Numismatic fraud within the past 20 years. But until several copies can be compared side by side - it may be difficult to prove.

I hope the coin comes with a solid history so that it can be traced back to before the 1950's.
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Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2012  07:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Received an email confirming I was the highest bidder. I will post dimensions, better images of all 3 sides, and SG once I receive it.
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803 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2012  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Swamperbob - provenance will be hard to establish, especially since this auction did not attribute the coin for what it was, but there's a documented example from the 1930's in the ANS collection with Julius Guttag pedigree. I'm going to see if I can get my hands on an image of it to compare die markers.
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 Posted 08/20/2012  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Great coin - Congratulations - I have been hunting for onr for YEARS.
Pillar of the Community
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1962 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  02:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list
Bob, just to clarify...

Quote:
I vote pattern but conditionally. A coin of this design was in fact made as a pattern...

So, it's your belief that this "Do 1840 O.M.C." style ***as originally executed*** was indeed a PATTERN and not a contemporary fake, yes?


Quote:
but I am suspicious that it has been copied as a Numismatic fraud within the past 20 years.

...however, you believe this pattern issue may have been a target of some modern-day numismatic forgery? You seem to be saying that like you've seen something...
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 Posted 08/21/2012  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
realeswatcher Yes in both cases.

That the 1840 coin was most likely a pattern of sorts makes complete sense to me and it is very well known that the Soho facility and others in Birmingham, England did make unrequested patterns for many different countries while attempting to sell their expertise as die makers. The original intent was not to make counterfeits for circulation.

But a pattern for any coinage is normally required to have been produced in response to some form of "request" to do so by the governing agency responsible for coinage. I am unaware that any researcher has located the supporting documentation to prove that the coin in question was a "requested" therefore authorized pattern. In 1840 the Durango mint was still operated under lease by Bras de fer and since he used French hubs in 1832 it is very likely he was shopping again.

But in many places, producing such an unrequested or unauthorized "pattern" could be considered a crime if the coins in fact reached circulation. The coins would then become de-facto counterfeits regardless of the actual original intent of manufacture.

So the non-fraudulent purpose of the original production does not make the coin an "authorized" pattern - that is another issue entirely. The status of the 1840 absent the written proof that it was considered to be a pattern contemporaneously or was actually requested by Mexican mint authorities - leaves us somewhere between Pattern and Counterfeit. This is an area which has no actually well accepted name.

So, while I think an answer in the affirmative should be considered absolutely the correct answer because I believe the coin was meant as a pattern for a proposed coinage in Durango - I could not oppose an interpretation of counterfeit should circulated off metal strikes be encountered in significant numbers (relative to known mintage - which here is a very low number).

The second question has a much clearer answer. Yes, I have seen a crude copy of this coin which was obviously made to capitalize on the rarity of date. The coin was in a collection of counterfeits and I only briefly examined it. But it was a poor excuse for a pattern. The primary purpose of a pattern is to demonstrate the capabilities of the maker as a die sinker. It is, therefore, not a crude rendering like a concept trial by an artist. The coin was clearly cast and lacked fine details.

That "odd" counterfeit was what drove me to research this date in the first place perhaps 15 years ago.

So as in ALL CASES where a rare item is involved - be CAUTIOUS but not paranoid.
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 Posted 08/22/2012  01:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list
I think I would refer to this coin as a salesmans sample, produced with the intent of convincing the Durango Mint to buy dies from the manufacturer. This opens up a whole new genre of collecting, the only other similar example that comes to mind would be the "salesman sample" of the Teddy Bear Encased Cent holder (of Kolbs Bakery fame) that sold on ebay a few months ago.
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Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 09/04/2012  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Finally received it in-hand. SG of 8.44, which sounds about right for silver plated bronze. Same crazy rotation as the coin in the Heritage auction and the same die markers. Going to shoot some close-up pics before sending it in to NGC to get into a holder.

Pics will be posted shortly. Very neat coin.
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Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 09/04/2012  10:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Large obverse and reverse - edge will follow shortly.

Interesting effect in the legend - letters almost seem shifted, leaving a depressed image of the letter right below it. You can clearly see this ghosting under "O.M.C.10.D". Could this be the plating shifting during strike? Looking at some spots on the edge, the core metal seems cast, which could explain the surface dings and pockmarks if the plating is thin enough.

1840-Durango-Pattern?
1840-Durango-Pattern?
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 09/04/2012  10:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Edge:

1840-Durango-Pattern?
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1757 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2012  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
Personally - I would like to perform an XRF analysis on this coin to get a better understanding of the alloy. From my understanding bronze is the least frequent base alloy in Sheffield CC8R's - predominantly brass (Cu/Zn) and high copper alloys. Still silver over bronze does not seem to appear from your images? Recently I did some off-metal analyses for Mike Diamond of Coin World. Some people have heard of the heavy 1941 Brassy Lincoln Cents - turns out there a combination brass/bronze mixture (Cu/Zn/Sn alloy). Contact me privately if you are interested - at least you will have the slab with an XRF analysis. Just a thought ... slab alloy descriptions are primitive ... but then again Bob ... these are primitive times when it comes to Material Analysis ... <BG>.

John Lorenzo
United States
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 09/05/2012  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
Ni/Cu does not seem likely? This toning suggest silver and Bob lets face it this is no Sheffield I have ever seen ... we would expect some trace areas of green oxidation or hints of a debased alloy underneath the nickel? or silver?.
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 Posted 09/06/2012  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I have held off a long time after seeing the pictures - to think and re-think my comments. But the edge shots have now given me great concern. Since submission to a TPG is imminent and they do not typically look at or consider the edge - I wanted to reply before it possibly gets covered forever.

In 1840 there were branch mints at Mexico that used hubs made "overseas". That fact is well known. These dies were French and English (Boulton- Soho) made. Both of those mints were at the TOP of the game - so to speak. Both were exporting state of the art technology that FAR surpassed the US and both were light years ahead of Mexico. (I must note that here in referring to England I am not referring to the country but the mint operated by Matthew Boulton's son at Soho). England was using Boulton mint equipment but was not exporting the technology or selling die making skills.

The reeded edge applied to production runs was produced in England and in France by a retracting collar die or dies. This technology was restricted to POWERED presses and COULD NOT be used on hand operated screw presses.

The edge on this pattern piece was not applied using either of those moving collar techniques. This implies it was struck on a collarless press and edged in a separate step using a low tech press. WHY?

In 1840 it is also well known that it was still illegal for the branch mints to use dies made outside of Mexico. The mints operated by lessors with ties to European financial interests (especially England) did circumvent the laws by smuggling dies into their compatriots. Making the dies elsewhere greatly increased production rates and profits. This is exactly why Bras de Fer did it in the first place in 1831.

The characteristic most normally associated with a Pattern coin is that they represent the VERY BEST POSSIBLE techniques. This applies to die cutting and strike both. No one advertises with poor looking or poorly made coins.

Here from the outset I have seen a poorly finished die that leaves much to be asked in comparison to the typical pattern strike of the 1840 era. The plating used amplifies the poor appearance overall since it obscures detail.

So was the plating original to the pattern or was it added later in an attempt to pass this coin? If I knew how all the other patterns of this same type were surfaced I might be able to dismiss this question.

The plating method which leaves gaps in the "shadows" of letters most often is an electro-galvanic process. That shadow is an effect of the way the electrode (the coin) pulls ions of silver out of the electrolyte (the silver enriched liquid medium in which the coin is suspended). In the area where the letters rise above the coin's surface some ions migrate to the higher elevations on the letters instead of directly to the surface (field) of the coin near the bases of the letters. This results in a much thinner plate as you approach the letters. This area also accumulates most dirt which can remove any traces of plate in actual circulation. The faster the deposition process the more pronounced the effect. This effect is seen most often on cheaply made Counterfeit 8Rs produced in the 1870s and 1880s.

The problem I see with this pattern is the date of the electro-galvanic introduction. It was known but not widely used in 1840 and the way this piece is done is very POOR. It looks bad and would make a BAD impression. Not good for sales. So I see it as an indication of a late date for the plate. Unfortunately an original pattern made in 1840 could have been plated in 1880. I know of no way to distinguish the two - unless the other pattern copies of this design ALL LACK the plate. The one place where electro-deposition was well underway in 1840 was England. But that leaves the question of why did the do such a poor job when Boulton specialized in thin plate Sheffield and amalgam plating methods?

There are other silver plate processes that could also leave the shadow as a feature of flow across the coin's surface especially if done hastily. These are earlier but they tend to make the surfaces of the coin plated look poor and they tend to obscure the fine die details. Once again the use of any plating system that disguises the surface of the coin is a BAD sales technique for a die manufacturer trying to get a contract. A sharp strike in copper is far better to show workmanship.

I agree with John that the plate would be very interesting to test. Electro-deposition leaves behind 999 fine silver and only the fact that XRF reads "INTO" the coin slightly would skew the effect slightly by reading the metal beneath. Testing numerous thick spots versus a clean underneath spot could allow a clear picture of the nature of the plate. Washes and other plating process leave traces of other metals and could be eliminated.

After thinking through the plate I turned back to the die work I see on the pattern itself. The die work I see seems very poor quality for either Boulton or the French - it is blunted, not SHARP and DISTINCT as I would expect. For contrast, anyone interested should look at any of the pattern strikes Boulton actually made - there are numbers of those in Doty's book on the Soho Mint. You can also look at the great number of French patterns made in the 1840's that are shown in many books on the mints and minting.

I can think of three possibilities at this point.

1. The coin is a simple counterfeit made anywhere for circulation, in which case, all of these "patterns" would be re-classified as contemporary counterfeits. I view this as possible it has happened before.

2. A counterfeit of a real Pattern made for numismatic fraud. This is also possible given that everyone knows this particular coin is an early reeded 8R and given the fact that Numismatic counterfeits of this coin do exist.

3. The coin is a real pattern made locally in Mexico or someplace else with odd legends and a bad reeded edge.

But why the edge - WHY REEDS?

The technology is NOT Mexican in 1840 and why would they mimic a process they did not use or have the technical capability to employ in 1840 without buying machinery from Europe or elsewhere?

That reeded edge pushes me toward 1 above not 3.

The reason is simple. If reeds were applied to sell a moving collar die press - WHY put the reeds on to look HORRIBLE? Why not just mount the pattern dies in a moving collar press?

I am not at a point where I am comfortable in making a final opinion. But the appearance bothers me.

Pillar of the Community
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803 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2012  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Bob, very well reasoned post - thank you. Your explanation of the ghosting effect was easy to understand. After studying the coin for a bit, I am also puzzled by the crude die elements and edge, especially since the thought was that this is a "salesman sample" highlighting abilities of a particular mint / engraver. Other than the example sold by Heritage last year, I have not seen these before. Die markers, strike weakness, and rotation match perfectly, so I assume the other one is of the same origin. I don't see any reason to rule out the possibility that this is a contemporary counterfeit, or that the entire KM-PN59 line are counterfeits. Would be interesting to study a few of the examples, especially since there are a few reported examples in white metal and coin silver.
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 Posted 09/08/2012  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I agree studying others would help. But whether or not it is a contemporary counterfeit or not it is a "wonderful coin".

As was the case with the micro - O dollars I don't see the price falling at all at least for the original type. The more recent knock-offs are a different issue.

Of course right now - it would be hard to tell which is which.
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