Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. 300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsVancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Any One Good A Chemistry

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 19 / Views: 3,596Next Topic Page 2 of 2
Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  04:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add enworb to your friends list
Are you sure they are percentages and not estimated mass?

If it is mass then:
The first one totals 776881. The copper content is 551805. That makes 71%.
The nickel content is 198381 which is 25.5%, Mn is manganese and is less than 2%

The second one totals 915790. The copper content is 590253. That makes 64%. The nickel content is 382950 which makes 42%. Manganese is almost 3%.

I would guess that its ppm though but the above calculations work out pretty close to what it should be if it was mass which is weird.

Anyway the surface is pretty corroded so might be completely different to the inner parts.
Edited by enworb
05/10/2013 04:25 am
Moderator
Learn More...
Australia
16873 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  05:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list
In any scientific test, it's always good to have a "control". If you've got two coins you wish to investigate, then submit a third coin for analysis, one that seems perfectly normal and has no issues or problems whatsoever. That way, you can tell the difference between things that are actually strange about the sample and things that have gone wrong with the testing.

I have two quick questions about the test.

First, what was the test, exactly? XRF? You still seem to have the coins with you, so it's safe to assume it wasn't an ICP test like we use in the lab where I work - for that test, you need to dissolve the entire coin in acid first. The nature of the test will also affect the interpretation; XRF is surface analysis only, and doesn't tell us whether the coin is solid coppery metal or whether it's simply picked up a coppery coating from someplace.

Second, as others have asked, what are the units? It's impossible to interpret results that are just a bunch of numbers, without knowing what the numbers represent.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1041 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  07:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shanew to your friends list

I think its ppm
Any-One-Good-A-Chemistry
there just seem to be no environmental damage
Any-One-Good-A-Chemistry
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1041 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  07:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shanew to your friends list
the other ten cent piece with no reading on edge micro views of the rim with a another 10c beside it

Any-One-Good-A-Chemistry

Any-One-Good-A-Chemistry
Pillar of the Community
Australia
750 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Unicorn to your friends list
Shane, if you don't mind me asking, how much did the tests cost? Did you take them there, or post them? Thanks!
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1041 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shanew to your friends list
cost nothing had 5 items done took about a hour sorry cost me a bottle of vodka will let you know the other items when I have done some more home work
Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2013  05:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list
There's traces of silver in it? That doesn't seem right.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2013  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add enworb to your friends list
Only 0.065%
Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  07:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list
I suppose, but ~0.36g of silver per 10c piece adds up when they're made by the million. Probably depends how economical it is to separate it I guess, assuming there actually is silver.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  07:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add enworb to your friends list
Its possible (pretty likely) the silver was picked up by the coin rather than having been there in the original planchet.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list
Yeah you're probably right. Looking at that list it must have been in contact with all sorts of weird and wonderful things.
Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  08:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list
The second coin with no rim is coated with mercury, Hg. I wouldn't touch it with bare hands.
Rest in Peace
United States
2668 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Parklane64 to your friends list
I helped a young girlfriend get mercury off of her jewelry after she played with a broken thermometer. It's a fairly simple procedure, if you know how to handle the right acid.

After her shower, I insisted she clean her entire small apartment, wash all of her clothes, and detail her car. I helped her with the clean up.
Moderator
Learn More...
Australia
16873 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  11:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list
OK, I've figured it out now - they've used one of these, a handheld XRF analyser. I work in a lab at UQ St Lucia; I didn't know somebody local had access to one of these.

Which does answer my previous question: XRF is a surface analytical technique; it won't tell you if the result is just surface contamination, or if the composition is like that all the way through.

That being said, there does not appear to be a lack of nickel in your "coppery" coin; the opposite, actually, with a Cu:Ni ratio of 2.8:1 rather than 3:1, there is a slight reduction in copper content; this would not account for the copper colour. I'd still conclude it was environmental damage. For a relatively pure metal, adding up all the ppm figures "should" give you pretty close to the theoretical 1 million parts per million; this coin falls far short, meaning there's an awful lot of undetectable elements (oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, chlorine, etc) sitting on the surface.

The "rimless" coin has the same problem, only worse: a distinct overabundance of nickel, with a ratio of 1.5:1, twice what it should be. What it doesn't really tell you is why: is there twice as much nickel as there should be, or is half of the copper missing? Copper being stripped from the surface selectively is far more probable than vice-versa, as copper is more electropositive than nickel. But I don't know if such "surface enrichment" is normal for well-circulated cupronickel alloy coins.

Here is where a couple of controls might have come in handy: a bright, mint-fresh coin, and a well-worn but otherwise normal coin.

As for the trace levels of other stuff (manganese, silver, mercury, etc), that's pretty much par for the course with raw metals that are sourced as cheaply as possible. It's too expensive to remove those last few fractions-of-a-percent of contaminants, if you don't really need to do so. It doesn't really mean too much, except that such trace-level detection can in theory be used to "fingerprint" the metal and trace it back to its origin. I've read about analytical work done on ancient coins that demonstrate the likelihood that certain ancient coins were likely to have had their metal mined from a certain place, as opposed to another place.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1295 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  12:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add markn to your friends list

Quote:
I've read about analytical work done on ancient coins that demonstrate the likelihood that certain ancient coins were likely to have had their metal mined from a certain place, as opposed to another place.


We had an academic do a presentation at our coin club that covered exactly this. A world wide program to "fingerprint" the silver used in ancient greek coins so they can tell where the silver was mined.
Page 2 of 2   Previous TopicReplies: 19 / Views: 3,596Next Topic Page 2 of 2
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.33 seconds to rattle this change. Forums