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 Replies: 65 / Views: 7,209 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
ScottCC.....
I have a hypothetical situation for you.
Say I get a business strike coin straight from the Mint (freshly struck mint state coin) then proceed to walk to the nearest store where I purchase an item using this coin (take it from my pocket, hand it over to the clerk). Then the clerk notices it's in 'great shape' and takes it out of the till, goes home and places the same coin in his/her collection. (in the process of said transaction, a few minor marks occur on the coin).
I have to ask you..."is this coin "Mint State" and thereby should it be graded anywhere between ms60 to ms70?
Edited by doubleeagle59
11/02/2013 4:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1461 Posts |
kbbpll. I couldn't agree more and no way was that a criticism. It would seem that I'm making a case against professional grading, but all I'm trying to do is understand ICCSs grading methodology. It's one of the few times where I had a set of coins graded by ICCS that left me completely perplexed. Possibly because as previously mentioned, I grade many foreign coins through NGC,PCGS & ANACS and although all vary slightly, they tend to follow similar methodology and consistency so I know what to expect. A point made by one poster here is that once you see enough ICCS coins, you'll learn the secret formula. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess it's all perspective and you have to see the coins in the same light as ICCS. At least for now. When in Rome...
DE59. I agree, I've argued that point on MS60 coins throughout this thread. Also agree that it's a tough range. But this is where a formula that relies too much on "appeal" fails and tends to produce incontinent results. Putting my dealer hat on, it's also a tough grade range (more specifically AU) to sell. AU coins almost always sell closer to EF than MS. Last thing a dealer wants is an expensive AU grade coin in their inventory. Not affordable by many, not desired by people who can afford. There are exceptions of course.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
Scott. I understand you trying to define the word in it's "purest sense", however all of the TPGs and most professionals would disagree with you with respect to how that defenition gets applied across the grade scale.
Edited by TheCoinHunter
11/02/2013 4:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
One last thing about these 'inconsistent' grades we've seen with these examples.
Remember...we're talking about GOLD coins.
One thing I have learned over the years (or should I say NOT LEARNED)...is how to grade GOLD!! (it's a whole different grading ballgame with gold coins).
Edited by doubleeagle59
11/02/2013 4:49 pm
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
Again, you seem to be stuck in trying to define whether the coin has been "circulated" - in the strictest dictionary definition of the word, "to move around, as from person to person or place to place" - then the coin in your example has indeed been "circulated".
I do agree with your assertion that many coins that have been graded by MS may have indeed seen some level of limited circulation - as I'm sure we can all agree, that with some marks it may be impossible to ascertain whether they occurred at mint or during post-mint handling, or during a limited form of "circulation".
And just as I'm sure we can all agree, that sometimes the graders just don't take much time in actually examining a coin, to properly determine and assign the proper grade.
The real question you pose is whether the coin can and should be assigned a grade at some level of "mint state" - and in my opinion this should be determined by assessment of the degree of markings on the coin - and opinion as to whether the marks occurred during mint processing, or during limited circulation.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
DE59. This is where you might have a point. As you previously stated, I think fields in general play a much bigger role in gold coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
ScottCC...I agree with everything you said in your above post except the very last words where you say ....... "as to whether the marks occurred during mint processing, or during limited circulation" (to determine the assigned graded of mint state or circulated).
Now I ask you...."how in blazes is one supposed to figure that one out?"
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
TheCH.....Yes, I agree.
Like I said before...sometimes with ICCS a coin with 'wear' but with MS fields will get the benefit of the doubt as being MS.
Right or wrong, we can debate this forever, but the key is to realizing ICCS definitely leans towards the 'MS" side.
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
TCH: Quote:
I understand you trying to define the word in it's "purest sense", however all of the TPGs and most professionals would disagree with you with respect to how that definition gets applied across the grade scale. Really It's quite apparent that " you" disagree - but as I see it the preponderance of facts and opinions thus-far submitted does not disagree. Go back and re-read some of the fact-based information I have cited from respected professionals in the field and the industry "standards" that have been established as 3rd party graders explain their methods of grading, and the numismatic standards set by bodies such as ANA, etc. All submit that a "mint state" coin cannot have marks or damage inflicted upon it that did not occur outside the minting / bagging process. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
ANA MS-60 definition posted for the 3rd time. Definition: ----- A coin graded MS-60 will be unattractive, dull, or washed-out mint luster may mark this coin. There may be many large detracting contact marks, or damage spots, but no trace of circulation wear. There could be a heavy concentration of hairlines, or unattractive large areas of scuff marks. Rim nicks may be present, and eye appeal is very poor. Copper coins may be dark, dull, and spotted. ------- And although I may subscribe to the fact that in some cases the origin of some the above imperfections can be determined, many on a 100+ year old coin can't. Was the mark made by a mint employee, delivery handler, counter, etc... This is why an MS60 grade would probably never apply to a coin minted by today's process.
Edited by TheCoinHunter
11/02/2013 5:28 pm
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
double eagle:
Quote:
I agree with everything you said in your above post except the very last words where you say ....... "as to whether the marks occurred during mint processing, or during limited circulation" (to determine the assigned graded of mint state or circulated).
Now I ask you...."how in blazes is one supposed to figure that one out?"
You left out of my quote a very important word - "opinion".
I assert that the grader has to make an "opinion" in that case as to in their experience / knowledge / training how marks occurred - which is why the art / science frustratingly has us debating these issues.
The types of coins in this range are indeed going to be difficult to make a certain assessment of - but if we apply the knowledge and opinions offered so far in this particular topic thread and go back to the original coins THC pictured for opinion - most have stated that in their opinion the coins had sufficient markings which appear to have occurred post mint re wear and should not warrant assignment above AU.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Grading is both an art and a science.
It not only needs a set of rules (guidelines) but also needs a trained, experienced eye to evaluate the coins' grade as a whole.
To grade strictly by the 'book' will lead to many mistakes.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Scott....my mistake....."You left out of my quote a very important word - "opinion"."
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
Here is the rundown of the guessed grades Scott. Everyone agreed on the hairlines. A lot of the commentary and discussion came after the grade was revealed and the MS62 coin was posted.
MSDetails
AU55
MS60
AU58
MS60
MS60
MS60
AU55/58 (Yours)
Edited by TheCoinHunter
11/02/2013 5:29 pm
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
I'm wondering - given that this topic thread, and it's similar sister thread, "Abandoning ICCS in favour of CCCS and PCGS" - rank #1 and #3 respectively in terms of activity (number of replies) over past year - whether Canadian Forums should have a similar separate Forum (like they have for American)
on "Third Party Graders" ?
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Posted 11/02/2013 4:42 pm
