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 Replies: 54 / Views: 6,960 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
Interesting thread. First on dealer ethics (being one). I don't believe the ICCS coin in question and how it was listed was in any way unethical. There was nothing hidden or skewed about this listing. As mentioned here before the coin is clearly shown, described as cleaned, showed the holder and priced at trends with an offer option on it. Sure the "harshly" could have been emphasized in the listing but frankly form a point of value of a higher end collectible coin it's really irrelevant to what level it was cleaned. It's perplexing to me as to why anyone would jump on this listing as some sort of dealer fraud. You have many options before you buy a coin. Ask for pictures, ask questions, research, etc...All before you make a conscious decision to offer and/or purchase an item. On top of that most large dealers will have a no questions ask return policy. So what exactly is the issue here? On the topic of grading. The pros and cons of the way ICCS grades have been discussed here at nauseum. I deal with many ICCS coins, one of the very few complaints I may have is grading consistency with problem coins. Some are "commented" as was the case with this one and some just net graded. I would like to one day better understand ICCS' methodology in that area. This is a problem far less seen with PCGS and/or NGC grading methodology which achieves far more consistency. This coin would not be numerically graded by either NGC or PCGS. Secondly, the age old "myth" that ICCS is far stricter on coin grading Canadian coins (at least in today's grading world) is just that, a myth. I've posted many "at par" cross grades between US TPGs and ICCS on this forum and although it does happen (both ways), it certainly doesn't happen with any consistency. Last but not least, reading some of the comments, why is the assumption made that someone got ripped off? Do you really think a novice would by a $1500.00 coin? Maybe someone needed it for their "range" and money wasn't an issue. The fact is that only than the two WILLING parties making the deal know and making up assumptions about it is unfair.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
There is a PCGS 1947 dot dollar genuine that looks like a6 3 or 64 for sale by an US dealer for months with no offers, it's a hole filler, like a 200.00 coin. If the ICCS label is correct on this coin, that's what this coin is worth around just my opinion. I have had many good purchases from this dealer and his auctions, just this sale seems of of place.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2427 Posts |
Quote:
"It's perplexing to me as to why anyone would jump on this listing as some sort of dealer fraud." I believe Sleezy was term used. My eyes may be failing me however I don't see the word fraud used anywhere other than from you. "Last but not least, reading some of the comments, why is the assumption made that someone got ripped off?" Are you trying to say this was a good deal? Would you purchase this coin for your own collection at the sold price point?... Thank you. It doesn't matter how we dissect this, there are no winners. Edited by darryldarryl
02/12/2014 11:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
Darryl,Irrelevant of the term you use, the message undertone is the same. As a dealer, it wouldn't be a price point that I could work with be it a problem coin or not. But my objective may be different then the buyer who purchased the coin. Many problem coins sell in the market place for numerous reasons. There is value to everything. I'll give you an example. I have a client who's looking for a 1935 & 1936 dollar in an ICCS G grade. He'll pay 3/4 x trends possibly more for the coin because of what he is trying to accomplish. I didn't say the 45 was a good deal, however someone consciously bought the coin for whatever reason. Not everything in this business revolves about buying coins at 20% trends.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I've been following this and I can see both sides, but I tend to agree with TheCoinHunter. We don't know what communication went on between buyer & seller, perhaps better pictures were requested and delivered, and the buyer is perfectly happy. Also the discussions around "buyer will find out when they try to sell" discounts the possibility that this coin will sit in a collection for 30 years, being enjoyed, and then passed on to grandchildren who will have no knowledge of price paid, and by then collectors may have a different attitude towards cleaning, just as they had 40 years ago. I guess my point is that not everybody is in this to flip coins for profit.
The same seller currently has a PCGS MS63 BIN $900 US. It has an obvious rim dent, although relatively minor. Where do you draw the line with emphasizing flaws in your listing? Is the seller obligated to say "rim dent"?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
Do you think 1500.00 is a fair or reasonable price for this coin?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
If it's fair and reasonable to the buyer and he can sleep at night having done the deal, then it's a fair price. Who are we to judge? Is $80 for a G8 1935 Dollar a fair price? I wouldn't by a new 40K Ford SUV because its worth 4K after 5 years but many people do. Do I personally think that 75% trend for this particular coin is high? Yes, in this market it is.
Edited by TheCoinHunter
02/13/2014 11:50 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
If this coin is a normal ICCS ms64 label, who cares it sold in a reasonable price range, but with this odd grading label it has generated much discussion, oh well
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Moderator
 Canada
10463 Posts |
Ironic how fast everyone cries 'foul' with the coin dealer here, without knowing the details of the transaction, and lamenting how the collector is at a loss here. Yet, everyone is all pats on the back when 'flipping' a popular NCLT item on ebay for 2-3 times what they paid for it, most often to an unknown collector who might not necessarily know better. Said 'flippers' know fully well that most 'flipped' items will depreciate considerably in a decade or less... It does not matter if you collect coins, stamps, comic books, Hot Wheels or rare muscle cars... Caveat emptor applies to all. Dealers and collectors alike... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9866 Posts |
"Flippers" aren't respected dealers, they occupy the other end of the spectrum, their maxim is "there's a sucker born every minute". The sale of this coin brings the dealer down to their level.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2427 Posts |
Quite simply put...For all those dealers who read this thread and defend the seller on the sale of this coin then
I invite and encourage you to list the name of your company below so I/we can pass by your booths at any future shows or elsewhere.
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Moderator
Canada
10463 Posts |
I would suspect that most participants in this forum, are astute enough to buy the coin and not the holder... (certainly a message we all have been saying for years here). Frankly, I don't consider a sale like this to be a deal breaker with me. Partly because I know any coin bought from that dealer, can be easily returned if the buyer is not happy with the coin. I have bought problem coins unknowingly in my early collecting days, some were expensive. I chalked that experience up as knowledge and a lesson learned... it is like watching my boy lower his guard and get his nose thumped in his karate lessons - some lessons are best learned the hard way. But, watching a dealer last year at a coin show (who shall remain unnamed here) offer face value for silver coins from someone who inherited a collection, on the other hand, is sickening... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
Edited by SPP-Ottawa
02/18/2014 7:34 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2427 Posts |
This thread twitches a nerve with me and I keep telling myself to let the thread go only to find myself getting drawn right back in after every other comment. Note to self... Let this thread go and do not comment anymore.  Edited by darryldarryl
02/18/2014 7:50 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
So what's a fair market value price for this coin?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
972 Posts |
400.00-500.00 IMO...But I would have no interest in a harshly cleaned dollar.  |
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Posted 02/12/2014 7:56 pm
