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1802 Large Cent Error

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Forum Dad
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 Posted 08/29/2015  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list

Quote:
I can't even reply to posters!


What did you just do then?


Quote:
I guess I don't know how to add to the pics, the service won't let me select a new pic.


About 300 images are posted here a day without any issues at all. No one is forcing you to use Photobucket.
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 Posted 08/29/2015  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
I don't see an error either, and I have no problems posting photos after learning the ropes and using the "Preview" option to check my work. Otherwise, I'm staying out of this one!
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 Posted 08/29/2015  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHuntingDrew to your friends list

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I guess I'll find a new Forum.


Good luck with that. This is one, if not the most, helpful numismatic forum on the internet.
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 Posted 08/29/2015  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
Might the OP's coin be an S-239, the so-called elephant trunk variety? I know that many copper collectors oppose the "cute names" that have been attached to certain varieties, but I say, "If the schnoz fits, wear it." Here's mine:

1802-Large-Cent-Error

1802-Large-Cent-Error

P.S. - Welcome to the CCF, MikePellerin. I humbly suggest patience on your part. This is a great place for coin collectors!
Edited by ExoGuy
08/29/2015 10:06 pm
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 Posted 08/29/2015  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list
Compared to your coin, I'd say it is S-239.

What's the rarity?
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 Posted 08/29/2015  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
I believe it's an R-3. Vermontensium.
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 Posted 08/30/2015  12:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikepellerin to your friends list
Sorry for being so impatient. I'm usually a nice guy. I fractured my ankle a couple of days ago and am on morphine. It makes me cranky when it wears off.

ExoGuy: Yes, it looks like that. I can't take a proper pic with my camera phone to show the detail better. Can you give me more information about that error/variety?

And again, sorry to everyone for being a jerk.
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 Posted 08/30/2015  04:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
MikePellerin .... Apology noted and hope you'll stick around; become a contributor. We all miss a beat, now and then.

It appears to me that my coin is a later die state; this, as my so-called "elephant trunk" is more prominent, despite having more wear than the subject piece. There are collectors who specialize in die states and will typically place more market value on pieces they covet. That said, the demand for this variety seems modest to me, despite the prominent die break. Personally, I've always liked anomalies in coins and tokens, illustrating aspects that are puzzling and challenge one's thoughts.

IMHO, the 1807 so-called "comet" cent is a sister piece to this one. The names add to the mystique, I think, but some collectors shun these labels. Both the elephant and comet varieties presently exist in sufficient numbers so as to make them collectible. Yet, there currently doesn't appear to be strong enough demand that they rate a healthy premium, price-wise, in the market. That said, I'd guess that these have good potential to be more competitively sought by collectors as knowledge of their existence spreads.

Given that the subject piece is an earlier die state of this error, many collectors would understandably assume that it is the result of PMD. It's only due to my familiarity with this error, this sub-variety, if you will, that I was able to recognize it for what it is. From a coppers' collector standpoint, I believe that it would make an interesting display to see a die progression of this variety. Perhaps, there are a few collectors out there who are looking to assemble such a set, and they would pay a premium for pieces that fit their scheme. To most collectors though, there's but a modest premium apparent. Many a coin or token simply awaits a more appreciative owner, it seems.
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 Posted 08/30/2015  04:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list

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...so-called elephant trunk variety?


Nice catch Exo
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 Posted 08/30/2015  05:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list
On another note I would like some thoughts, however, on why the indentation between the green arrows on a significantly more worn coin is so predominant while being virtually absent on the MS 61BN coin. I can't envision a progressive wear pattern like this one.

Also comment on why the PCGS coin has the upper elephant trunk bending down (between the black arrows) almost touching the upper forehead while the worn coin continues straight without curving downward and ends halfway up on the forward most curl.

Could there be something funny going on here for a buyer to be leery of in light of the fact that an R3 typically means 'approximately' only 300 - 400 'known' specimens exist?

1802-Large-Cent-Error
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 Posted 08/30/2015  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list
Different die state.
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 Posted 08/30/2015  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list

Quote:
I can't envision a progressive wear pattern like this one.


I once owned a similar die wear progression that was evident on a variety of patriotic Civil War tokens (Fuld # 47/332). I was however never able to locate an example, wherein evidence of the die break was totally absent, but I did have some specimens that were extremely prominent. It was a cool mini-set of sorts, being eight pieces in all.

Very subtle examples of this die break are easily found. Here's a pic of a more extreme example, late die wear state, of the obverse die #47:

1802-Large-Cent-Error

Here's an earlier die state of Fuld #47:

1802-Large-Cent-Error

Might a similar wear progression, not as stark mind you, not be possible for S-239? Gives me pause ...
Edited by ExoGuy
08/30/2015 12:04 pm
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 Posted 08/30/2015  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list

Quote:
I can't envision a progressive wear pattern like this one.


They all show die state progression, unless the crack/break destroys the die. It's not wear, it's increasing damage.
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 Posted 08/30/2015  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list

Quote:
It's not wear, it's increasing damage.


Does the die not evidence more wear with increased use, resulting in more metal flow into the stressed area, so to speak?

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 Posted 08/31/2015  02:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
The OP coin is a later die state, The dies cracked and the area between the cracks began to sink into the die face creating the raised "trunk" on the coin. On the MS coin the upper crack is well developed but the lower crack is still forming. On the OP coin both cracks are well formed and the piece of metal between them has sunk.

As to how much wear the dies had, this die cracked very early in its use and developed the more severe cracks fairly quickly. The die probably didn't last long enough for any really noticeable wear to develop. Tt was retired due to failure, not wear.
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