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Theories And Questions On Woodie Cents.

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 09/22/2015  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverStackerKid to your friends list
So its applied to the coin due to some obscure mystery process during the minting of the coin. We now know its not part of the metal.
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 Posted 09/23/2015  01:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list



Quote:
I don't believe the narrow, closely-spaced stripes reflect a poorly mixed alloy for several reasons. First, you see them in clad coins, and clad layers don't seem very prone to this sort of error. Second, the stripes appear to be quite superficial in that you can see that they're worn through on more heavily circulated specimens.

One of the biggest mysteries, at least when it comes to nickels and clad coins, is their frequent association with a gray or brown coloration. There's no reason why mint discoloration (whether from improper annealing or some other cause) should have any association with rolling marks.

Mike, in an attempt to be constructive, my opinion has evolved as follows: I think both the narrow and wide stripes are caused by insufficiently and/or improportionately mixed alloys. I believe the wider stripes are more insufficiently mixed than the narrow ones, and are thicker in volume as well. I believe this for a couple of reasons.
First, I believe one sees the narrow stripes in clad coins because the clad layers are less prone to this error (enough that the stripes are not wide). Second, I believe the narrow stripes appear as "superficial" when the coin is worn, because they are thinner by volume than the more poorly mixed wide stripes.
When it comes to nickels and clad coins with stripes, I think their frequent association with a gray or brown color is a direct result of an improperly mixed alloy of a different combination of metals than that of cents.
Mike, you are certainly at the top of your profession, so I just thought I'd offer an "other side of the coin" from a relative layman's perspective. JMO
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 Posted 09/23/2015  02:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverStackerKid to your friends list
I thought everything you just said too. Very nice!
Valued Member
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 Posted 09/23/2015  03:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GSDykes to your friends list
As for clad coins, the stripes may come from the rolling process wherein the 3 layers are pressure joined. They are literally fused. The Cu layer is in the center with the two outer layers being the CuNi. I agree that the lines probably come from this rolling, process, in which great pressure is exerted. The direction of the lines may follow the direction of the sheets (film) as they move along the pressure rollers. Are they then annealed before striking? I know that the pressure bonds are enhanced by first roughing the surfaces of each metal coil/roll. Anyways, if they are annealed after the cladding step, then this may help explain. Too, it is possible that when rolled, the copper cores (coil) may "swell" up into the outer layers, enough to color it, especially if the roller is not 1000% smooth?
Edited by GSDykes
09/23/2015 04:00 am
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 Posted 09/23/2015  04:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GSDykes to your friends list
I just read that during the reduction process the metals are intermittently annealed! This was stated in a volume on "Explosive Welding" by Chapman. Though this cladding process is not explosive welding, it is a pressure fusion, being cold rolled under great pressure. Also this patent explains some of the cladding/annealing processes.

http://www.google.com/patents/US3381364

patent # US3381364
Edited by GSDykes
09/23/2015 04:26 am
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 Posted 09/23/2015  09:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list
I now suspect that brown and gray-colored stripies found in nickels and clad coins are the result of both rolling and improper annealing. I suspect that the elevated temperatures of the annealing oven somehow bring out the striped pattern that is already latent in the surface metal. This conjecture would explain the greater-than-random association of stripes with discoloration and the uniform discoloration of the coins' edges.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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 Posted 09/23/2015  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list
I enjoyed it, Mike. It's always nice and helpful to get input from everyone. I've always enjoyed a good mystery, maybe we can do another one sometime.
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 Posted 02/03/2017  01:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list
This post is from Sept 2015.
Edited by CoinMasters
02/03/2017 3:46 pm
Bedrock of the Community
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 Posted 02/03/2017  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
So I have two questions. If these are a bad mixture issue, why are the lines always straight? If they're from a bad mixture, they should not be able to be sanded of the coin?
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 Posted 02/03/2017  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list
Just my opinion Coop, they may be straight, but not necessarily. The cent only represents small portions of the lines. Long curved lines appear straight when viewed in small portions like a Lincoln Cent. Come to think of it, they appear straight on almost all Woodys, sometimes not continuous, sometimes wider or narrowly spaced. It all depends on the portion of the mix a particular planchet is made from. The widths vary on the OP's coin.
The insufficiently mixed portion goes all the way through on a two sided Woody, but part of the mixture is mixed better on the one sided Woody. The batches are unevenly mixed, some sufficiently and some not. Otherwise there would be all Woodys or no Woodys. If you cut through a coin to see the lines, the cut hides them. I guess I'm just a Traditionalist when it comes to Woodies. lol I do believe with the modern clad Woodies some could be roller lines, the discoloration seems to support that. When sanded or worn and the lines disappear supports it too, as well as the traditional Woody that doesn't go all the way through. One thing's for sure though, whether one believes Woody's are caused by an improper mix or roller marks, it's all theoretical.
Edited by CoinMasters
02/03/2017 11:03 pm
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 02/03/2017  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list
Look at the line at the bottom of the date on the OP's coin. See how far it is from the line below it? Now look at how close both lines become at the left side of the coin. They are not parallel. Also note the different colors. Rollers or mix?
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 Posted 02/04/2017  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list
I think asking something to stay perfectly parallel after being struck with 50+ tons of pressure would be asking a bit much. Thanks, Doug.
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 Posted 02/04/2017  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list
Halo1st, I don't see how it could make some lines off in one direction, and others off in another. It certainly can't account for the different colors. Mike was talking about an even discoloration of the entire surface on clad coins, caused in part by excessive heat. The OP's coin is multi-colored. The only thing I can think of that would cause that is an improper alloy mix. That's my opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs as well. Without a targeted study at the mint, the cause of Woodys will remain a theory.
Everything in this post has been repeated over and over. Can we give it a rest now?
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 Posted 02/04/2017  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
Probably when someone tries to sand the surface of one of these examples. If it is a bad mix, then it should show all through the cent. But if it is just a surface issue, then it would sand off. Then we will know for sure. I feel it will sand off the coin as it is just surface. On a woody, sanding the surface will not make this go away as it is deep into the planchet, not in the surface. I wish I had time. So maybe someday I will get a chance. Just too busy now to try this.
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 Posted 02/05/2017  12:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list
I think the mix is unevenly mixed, that is part of the mix is adequately mixed and part is not. Some Woodys go all the way through to the other side of the coin, and some are only on one side, some are only on part of one side. (insufficiently mixed) We will never know. All of this has been covered previously.
Edited by CoinMasters
02/05/2017 12:34 am
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