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Very Rare Straits Settlements 1878 Cent

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 Posted 01/21/2008  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
I managed to get some of the dirt off to better see the date, though some corrosion still persists. I also compared the rim to others I have of this type and did not find any significant differences.
Please scrutinize this close up pic.

Thanks!



Image: Very-Rare-Straits-Settlements-1878-Cent 18.jpg.jpg
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 Posted 01/21/2008  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list
I'm by no means an expert, but I can't see any signs of the date being altered. I still say it's OK.
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 Posted 01/21/2008  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Hi Numismat - The enlargement of the date does a nice job.

If you notice - there is apparent corrosion around an ON both of the digits that I am concerned with - the 7 and the 8 but nothing similar is visible on the other two digits or the beaded circle. There may be some in the fields but it is not as clear in any other area on this enlargement.

I did a blow-up of the 8 on the picture because it has a "feature" I have seen before on doctored coins. The surface of the suspect letters are crazed (cracked) as if the material has shrunk. These cracks form in a pattern seen in clay at the bottom of a dry river bed. The apparent cracks run side to side the full width of the 8 but do not extend out onto the fields. This cracking does happen on letters that are molded or sculpted from a soft matrix that then hardens... The shape of the 8 is very good and it may have been molded from the first 8 but if you put a ruler on the picture you can see that the 8's are NOT the same width. The easiest to measure is the upper loop of the 8 - the edges are sharp and two measurements that should be the same are found not to be identical.

I did a rough outline of some of the big seams in yellow and placed both the original picture and the enlargements side by side.

Can anyone else see what I mean?



Image Insert:
Very-Rare-Straits-Settlements-1878-Cent


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 Posted 01/21/2008  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list
Swamperbob, I defer to your expertise and I see what you are saying. Can this not also be caused by wear and corrosion?
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 Posted 01/21/2008  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Yes, it can be caused naturally. It is just very suspicious when it happens primarily on the two digits that would have to be altered to tuen a 10 cent coin into one worth $100.

Perhaps I am simply too suspicious, but I handle quite a few forgeries each and every week and nothing surprises me.
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 Posted 01/21/2008  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
This is really excellent information. These marks on the 8 would definitely be good evidence for doctoring on a high grade coin, but the surface is so marked up and corroded that it almost seems normal for those cuts in the date, as echizento pointed out. I agree it looks suspicious that the cracks are only on that part of the date.
I think that since this is a low grade coin, it's not as big of a deal. Had it been Unc and doctored that would truly be heartbreaking =)
I'll keep and enjoy it nontheless, just being a little wiser now on how to spot these things.
Thanks swamperbob for this excellent info, I feel like I should pay you for the time and great lesson! =)
Thanks again,
- Dmitry
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 Posted 01/21/2008  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
I actually also noticed that on the right side of the second 8, there is not so much of a pronounced indent between the loops as the first 8 and even the right side of the same 8. So if indeed it was doctored, would the most likely candidate?
There is no 1879, so would the 1874 be the closest? It also would have the plain edge like my coin.
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 Posted 01/22/2008  09:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Without knowing the individual die varieties (actually the hub varieties) I can not be sure at all which date this could be. Actually if I were doing it I would start from an 1876, but this does not seem to be a re-worked 6. The 1874 is the most common so it could be a 74.
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 Posted 01/23/2008  08:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Just as for some added information on the issue of date alterations - there is an auction on ebay still active that has an altered date.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...230215409746

This particular coin is my specialty. The host coin is a later date issue from the same mint (struck after 1882). But the alteration is very obvious. The 6 and the O are the wrong fonts and there is a discoloration around the altered numbers and letters. This changes a $15 original common date into a "rare" date and bidding has reached over $80.

Here is the coin itself. There is no doubt in my mind that the coin itself is real - but it is a bullion item with a little cosmetic surgery.

Image Insert:
Very-Rare-Straits-Settlements-1878-Cent





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 Posted 01/23/2008  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
Yes I definitely see what you mean about the wrong font, swamperbob. 2 normal 0's with a bead and open on top and right next to them a thinner and more angular 0. Seeing that the seller is in China, I would have assumed the entire coin is a lightweight fake to begin with =)
You said Mexican coins like this are your specialty... any chance you can scrutinize the 1876/5 Mexican coin I posted?
Thanks!
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 Posted 01/23/2008  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
Just found one of these on ebay from a Malaysian seller. This definitely looks like an 1876 altered (badly I might add). This is item # 290200881601

Image: Very-Rare-Straits-Settlements-1878-Cent d1ba_1.jpg
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 Posted 01/23/2008  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Numismat - I would be very happy to look at any Cap and Ray coin. I have been collecting in the series since roughly 1958 or 59 and started collecting counterfeits about 1960. How do I find it? Is it on a thread?

Regarding the altered date 8Rs, they are full weight silver. There are many ebay sellers from China who handle real silver coins with altered dates. They do that so that they can honestly say that the coin is guaranteed to be genuine silver. They can also say antique or old or anything similar and it is actually true. The only problem is the date or mint mark. It is a dodge but they get away with it all the time.

Add to that the fact that many novice coin collectors don't have a clue about actual die style variations made from year to year and mint to mint (about 300 total) for Mexican 8Rs and you have a buyer who is not even likely to know he has been swindled.

I tend to agree with your comment that the last 1878 could be an 1876 - all the left side needs some minor trimming and the right needs a small addition, but it is not too difficult for any competent jeweler.
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 Posted 01/23/2008  11:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
Here's the link:

https://goccf.com/t/24555

It's a 5 centavos so it's not a cap and rays series coin, but I figure you must know something about these varieties as well?

Thanks again!
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 Posted 01/26/2008  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
The 1865 Zs MO - altered date 8R sold for $102.50. That is about $100 too much for that one if you add postage. Pretty good for a couple hours work. I would love to speak to the buyer but ebay's "privacy" protection makes that impossible. Way to go ebay!
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 Posted 01/26/2008  1:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list
Yes, ebay politics are to make them the most money, not to protect ignorant buyers.
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