1788 Chile 2 Reales, Kleeberg Type Counterfeit

Thanks for the clarity John. I'm sure researching these pieces must be very difficult with the scarcity of information and specimens.

I purchased it online, was being sold as a genuine coin with not so clear pictures. I only realized what it was when I had it in hand.

John are you positive the alloy is German Silver? That alloy dates to 1835 in England and about 1830 in Germany at the very earliest. Have you isolated Paktong (classed as a Cupro-nickel) as a distinct alloy which could date back to the early 1700s or Brittania metal (a pewter) which dates to 1769 or 1770.

Either of those two alloys could have been used for a US colonial era circulating counterfeit like the 1788 Chile 2 reales. German silver would place production of the coin well after the US was independent and even AFTER the date for the end of the Spanish Colonial era in the Americas. It would be classified as a contemporary circulating counterfeit but from the later portion of that period.

I am still of the opinion that the CCC group needs to be divided into two distinct phases pre and post 1830. That date serves as a convenient dividing point for different technologies, different alloy types and often different locations where the coins were used.

In 1830 or later the most likely target for use was the US. That is where I would believe such a coin circulated. Before that date many other locations would have been receptive markets for the coin.

The almost complete lack of tarnish could point to either of the earlier alloys. German silver will discolor and stain rather easily.

John my point is that the imported alloy from China Paktong is NOT actually German silver. It is like Britannia metal a different alloy with a different composition but a similar appearance. When you say German silver you are dealing with the German's attempts to re-create Chinese Paktong. The alloys are different slightly different. Paktong does not always contain zinc above a trace (accidental level). There is substantial confusion of this term because people use Nickel silver (a misnomer) as a catch all category that includes both Paktong and German silver.

With XRF you need to get the signature of English Patkong pre-1830 (some pieces are hallmarked specifically for that alloy) and isolate the main and trace elements. I know museums have started to refer to the alloy as cupro-nickel no longer giving it a linkage to the German silver replication.

So I am concerned that stating flat out that German silver existed before the 1830 break through by the Germans is a challenge to the history of metallurgy that will need substantial justification to be taken seriously by authentication labs who do work for museums.

It may not be an easy to solve issue but German silver simply did not exist before 1830.

I agree completely re the need to change the definitions slightly. It is the only way dating with XRF will work correctly for German silver. Some of the material coming out of the Winterthur Laboratory indicates Paktong with only a contaminant level of zinc that entered the alloy naturally by way of the copper mined in China. I recall the level being under 10% zinc. I may be wrong.

The best reference to date on Paktong is Keith Pinn's book "Paktong - The Chinese Alloy in Europe 1680 - 1820. In the book once again Matthew Boulton and Birmingham, England are players in the manufacture of materials made from illegally imported Paktong. One of the more interesting parts are the results of tests run on the collection. The entire Pinn collection was tested for 10 elements using XRF at a detection limit of 0.02% or 200 ppm. The 129 pieces had some or all of the following elements present: copper (Cu), nickel (Ni), zinc (Zn), Iron (Fe), lead (Pb), arsenic (As), cobalt (Co), silver (Ag), tin (Sn) and antimony (Sb). Zinc levels varied from a low of 12 % to a high of 45%. Both Iron and Lead are contaminants in the 0.5% to 5% range and the rest tend to be lower level trace contaminants typically under 0.5% (5000ppm). One reading on one portion of a snuff box had an anomalous reading of 30% silver. Another location tested showed silver as a trace contaminant only.


On a second topic I raised earlier. Have you ever found the pewter alloy called Britannia metal? It is typically composed of 92 or 93% tin, 6 or 5% antimony, and 2% copper. It contains no lead is harder than most pewters and was used extensively for lower value flatware, plates etc. in the middle of the 18th century. It was also used as the base metal for early electroplated flatware in the 1840s and 1850s. This may be the high tin alloy that Bordeaux speaks about as Type 5.

I've definitely seen some contemp. counterfeit "pistareen" types (the peninsular Spain shield coins) in a greyish-white metal that most people might lazily call "German silver" or copper-nickel (or perhaps just the old standby, "white metal")... So, unless they were way-backdated, there was some kind of metal/alloy that accomplished this look...

John, here's an example from Senor Lalana - an oddball half real of the shield style (Philip V) w/very crude detailing:

At this point it makes sense to list any CCC as paktong GS if dated before 1830. I think we go into some detail in our book that the ANS presented to us during the book review. We do have definitive people applying for patents in 1835 in the U.K. and 1830 is estimated on when the Germans got a hold of this paktong by smuggling it out of China. When China started paktong I never went that far back but should read this reference Gurney came up with in this thread.

In my new book I have to check if I have any pre-1830 issues as its in the final TWEEK the next two months prior to its publishing at Amazon Books. If I spot any I may CHANGE the alloy from GS to early Paktong to proceed in the right direction. I guess the way we figure it now-a-days when its in the U.K. it won't be long before its in the U.S. which by all counts was no later than 1837.

Most U.S. collectors are aware = The Feuchtwanger Cent which was a "German silver" private token coin.

Lewis Feuchtwanger (born in Fürth, Bavaria on January 11, 1805) received a doctorate at the University of Jena and then moved to New York City. He was primarily a mineralogist, metallurgist, and chemist, but also worked as a physician and was a member of a number of learned societies. He wrote four books on mineralogy and chemicals.

In 1837, to alleviate the need for small change during the Hard Times, Feuchtwanger created tokens made of argentan (commonly known as German Silver), an alloy made of copper, nickel, zinc, tin and trace metals. It was considerably cheaper to produce than the extraction of copper for the government minted half-cents and cents.

The Hard Times, an especially rough period of economic recession following the dissolution of the Second Bank of the United States, was known for massive hoarding of small change. Much of the small change circulating at this time (roughly 1837-1844) was composed of clunky copper half-cents and cents privately produced or various cut and whole silver coins of foreign origin. In fact, it would not be until 1857, that Congress would enact into law that legal currency be coin of United States Mint origin.

In 1837, Feuchtwanger presented his one cent coins to Congress for approval as legal coinage and a cheaper substitute for copper. This was probably the first attempt to circulate "nickel" coinage in the United States. Congress denied his request, but Feuchtwanger persisted in his production and circulation. Laws banning private coinage were not passed until 1864. Between 1837 and 1844 thousands of Feuchtwanger cents came out of his New York City pharmacy. To the discerning collector over a dozen different die casts have been identified, affecting the relative rarity of each specimen found.

Aside from one cent tokens, in 1864 Feuchtwanger also produced Three Cent tokens which are considered extremely rare, as few specimens have survived. Feuchtwanger was also noted for producing stamp-like casts featuring his common theme of a pouncing eagle attacking a snake.

Feuchtwanger died in New York City on June 25, 1876.

Realeswatcher to be honest I never considered it a high concern since CCCs are always backdated to SOME degree. But 1835-1771 = 64 years is a long period for a CCC backdating event. But again we are guessing to a degree until we developed alloy standards for U.K. GS and this earlier China paktong.

JPL

There is a Kleeberg with these signs (Monarch, year, mintmark and lower weight but not triple struck.