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Replies: 18 / Views: 3,230 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1101 Posts |
Thanks Doug! It's always fascinating to follow your descriptions while attributing varieties. I think I figured out everything you describe except "the U.J. outline below letters ends in a small fork" What does the U.J. stand for?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
I'm surprised at XF45,
my limited understanding is that the lower band on the cornucopia must show individual beads in order to be in XF territory ?
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Moderator
 Canada
10463 Posts |
Doug, within a reasonable amount of time (24 hours, I think) you have the ability to edit your own posts to correct typos and the like. Click on the little icon above your post with the "sheet of paper and the pencil" - that is the edit button.
cheers!
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
Concerning the grade, over-all wear is clearly evident. I will not squabble with a XF 40 though. Given the preponderance of other relative diagnostics, the serriations of the Pineapples, shew wear, but are nearly complete. The Anchor Rope Dots atop the Anchor Shaft and Battle Axe Handle shew wear, but are discernible. The Mantle strap on the Chest nearly merges into the man's pectorials, but a line of demarcation does exist. The initials below the ground are sharp. The Bridle Strap and Rein are strong and do not merge into the body of the Horse. The Hemispheres atop the Globe are present. The design elements of the Basket Weave of the Cornucopiae are strong. The Helmet does not merge into the man's Face. The double lines of the outlines of the three quadrants of the Union Jack have not yet merged together.
Weighing all factors, I opted for a XF 45, but at least an AX 40.
p.s. SSP Ottawa Thanks for the info; I was unaware of the edit feature.
doug
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
U.J. is Doctor Courteau's nomenclature for Union Jack (some refer to this as the shield). The U.J. is the outer edge. Normally a second line is opposite the E in TOKEN. The inner line is referred to by Dr. Courteau as the outer edge of the St. Andrew's Cross frame. On some varieties, this outline extends below the K in TOKEN.
Some become perplexing. Is the "fork" actually a fork in the U.J., or is the left branch actually the lower segment of the St. Andrew's Cross frame. Some are clearly apparent, others...?
enough for now
doug
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5593 Posts |
Doug ... And all this from a guy who rode a motorcycle from Fla to Toronto for a show or two and some show& tell. Your token research is top notch. Hope to see you sometime in near future.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1101 Posts |
U.J. for Union Jack. Thanks Doug. I think I've got it now.
These are very interesting tokens, and now that I've got one to look at, I'm probably going to want more.
Numismania seems to be an incurable disorder.
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
 ..very interesting, more info Doug, love it.
Edited by SHAFTA9a 09/16/2016 08:47 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1101 Posts |
This looks like the small fork described in Dr. Courteau's description, just under the right side of the E. 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
Yes.
And it must be understood that the optics and magnifications used by Dr. Courteau were not on par with what we have today. And numismatic photography was still in diapers. This is where many enigmas arise when working Dr. Courteau's great tome.
Examine the segment of a line betwixt the outline of the Union Jack and the St. Andrew's Cross frame below the right section of the upright of the E in TOKEN. On some varieties, Dr. Courteau mentions the Union Jack being recut. On this variety, Dr. Courteau identified this anomaly as being forked. As seen in your great photo, one can use some imagination and see that this is actually a second line (also weak in the centre) betwixt the Union Jack outline and the St. Andrew's Cross frame. On higher grade ensamples, this is more prominent.
And this is why careful crud removal is paramount. The crud has to be removed to discover what lies below. And in my work, for the sake of clarity, when referencing right-side/left-side of legend characters, I am basing the reference from the 6 o'clock position. When referencing the right-side/left-side of Denticles, I am referencing the such from the 12 o'clock position.
Why? Denticles about the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock position do not a right or left-side, but a top and bottom. But one can not use top and bottom because the top is the rim and the bottom is the curved base. Oh well, rambling too much.
doug
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
I'm still having trouble getting past VF on this (but more than willing to learn)  The fingers of the hand holding the sword are indiscernible, as is the clasp holding the cape. The sword tip blends into horse's thigh. The band that wraps the Fleur-dis-lis has blended away, as have the leafs of the wreath at the junction of the anchor and sword. As mentioned before the beads in the lower bands of the cornucopia have lost their individual shapes. Most tend to over grade this series, perhaps I tend to under grade?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
Grading such tokens is often subjective.
This token exhibits sections which shew considerable wear (as documented in your photo) which are characteristic of a VF 30 or so.
In contrast, other sections of the token shew minimal wear and are characteristic of a XF 40 grade.
The token does shew mild environmental damage (corrosion). The corrosion should be noted, but is not sufficient to detract from a technical grade.
Aside of the ding below the horse's Haunch, the fields shew less dings than one would expect on many VF ensamples. The rims do not appear to have any noticeable distractions (damage). I suspect some of the cloudiness within the devices could be minimized thus enhancing to appearance of the token.
Is the glass half full or half empty?
In this case, I opted to the higher grade, primarily because one would expect wear to be more uniform throughout. How could the stronger elements (mentioned in a previous narrative) not shew comparable wear.
This token shews no die-cracks indicating the lack of late state die fatigue. What caused the weaker areas? Perhaps a slightly lighter weight planchet contributed, perhaps the strike was not struck squarely. I do not know.
And yes, I am always learning and willing to change.
doug
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1101 Posts |
I'm happy with VF. That's about what I was expecting. Since this is my first one of these tokens, I am not that familiar with the grading of them. The posts by Doug and Wade about points to look for in the grading is very helpful.
Thanks!
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
thanks Doug,
sooooooo many factors to take into consideration with this series.
I always appreciate your perspective - helps me look at my own coins with an unbiased opinion.
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
Quote: I am always learning and willing to change. Don't change anything Doug...you are the greatest when it comes to tokens. 
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Replies: 18 / Views: 3,230 |
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