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1857 St. George Half Penny Token - Variety?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2016  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list
Thanks Doug! It's always fascinating to follow your descriptions while attributing varieties. I think I figured out everything you describe except "the U.J. outline below letters ends in a small fork" What does the U.J. stand for?
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 Posted 09/15/2016  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list
I'm surprised at XF45,

my limited understanding is that the lower band on the cornucopia must show individual beads in order to be in XF territory ?

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Canada
10463 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2016  11:12 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list
Doug, within a reasonable amount of time (24 hours, I think) you have the ability to edit your own posts to correct typos and the like. Click on the little icon above your post with the "sheet of paper and the pencil" - that is the edit button.

cheers!
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2016  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list

Concerning the grade, over-all wear is clearly evident. I will not squabble
with a XF 40 though. Given the preponderance of other relative diagnostics,
the serriations of the Pineapples, shew wear, but are nearly complete. The
Anchor Rope Dots atop the Anchor Shaft and Battle Axe Handle shew wear, but are
discernible. The Mantle strap on the Chest nearly merges into the man's pectorials,
but a line of demarcation does exist. The initials below the ground are sharp.
The Bridle Strap and Rein are strong and do not merge into the body of the Horse.
The Hemispheres atop the Globe are present. The design elements of the Basket Weave
of the Cornucopiae are strong. The Helmet does not merge into the man's Face. The
double lines of the outlines of the three quadrants of the Union Jack have not yet
merged together.

Weighing all factors, I opted for a XF 45, but at least an AX 40.

p.s. SSP Ottawa
Thanks for the info; I was unaware of the edit feature.

doug
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 Posted 09/16/2016  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list
U.J. is Doctor Courteau's nomenclature for Union Jack (some refer to this as the shield).
The U.J. is the outer edge.
Normally a second line is opposite the E in TOKEN. The inner line is referred to by Dr.
Courteau as the outer edge of the St. Andrew's Cross frame. On some varieties, this
outline extends below the K in TOKEN.

Some become perplexing. Is the "fork" actually a fork in the U.J., or is the left
branch actually the lower segment of the St. Andrew's Cross frame. Some are clearly
apparent, others...?

enough for now

doug




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 Posted 09/16/2016  04:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list
Doug ... And all this from a guy who rode a motorcycle from Fla to Toronto for a show or two and some show& tell. Your token research is top notch. Hope to see you sometime in near future.
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1101 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2016  07:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list
U.J. for Union Jack. Thanks Doug. I think I've got it now.

These are very interesting tokens, and now that I've got one to look at, I'm probably going to want more.

Numismania seems to be an incurable disorder.
Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2016  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SHAFTA9a to your friends list
..very interesting, more info Doug, love it.
Edited by SHAFTA9a
09/16/2016 08:47 am
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 09/16/2016  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list
This looks like the small fork described in Dr. Courteau's description, just under the right side of the E.


1857-St.-George-Half-Penny-Token---Variety?
Pillar of the Community
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840 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2016  10:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list

Yes.

And it must be understood that the optics and magnifications used by Dr. Courteau were
not on par with what we have today. And numismatic photography was still in diapers.
This is where many enigmas arise when working Dr. Courteau's great tome.

Examine the segment of a line betwixt the outline of the Union Jack and the St. Andrew's
Cross frame below the right section of the upright of the E in TOKEN. On some varieties,
Dr. Courteau mentions the Union Jack being recut. On this variety, Dr. Courteau identified
this anomaly as being forked. As seen in your great photo, one can use some imagination
and see that this is actually a second line (also weak in the centre) betwixt the Union Jack
outline and the St. Andrew's Cross frame. On higher grade ensamples, this is more prominent.

And this is why careful crud removal is paramount. The crud has to be removed to discover what
lies below. And in my work, for the sake of clarity, when referencing right-side/left-side of
legend characters, I am basing the reference from the 6 o'clock position. When referencing the
right-side/left-side of Denticles, I am referencing the such from the 12 o'clock position.

Why? Denticles about the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock position do not a right or left-side, but a
top and bottom. But one can not use top and bottom because the top is the rim and the bottom
is the curved base. Oh well, rambling too much.

doug
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2781 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2016  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list
I'm still having trouble getting past VF on this (but more than willing to learn)

1857-St.-George-Half-Penny-Token---Variety?

The fingers of the hand holding the sword are indiscernible, as is the clasp holding the cape. The sword tip blends into horse's thigh.

The band that wraps the Fleur-dis-lis has blended away, as have the leafs of the wreath at the junction of the anchor and sword. As mentioned before the beads in the lower bands of the cornucopia have lost their individual shapes.

Most tend to over grade this series, perhaps I tend to under grade?
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840 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2016  03:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list
Grading such tokens is often subjective.

This token exhibits sections which shew considerable wear
(as documented in your photo) which are characteristic of
a VF 30 or so.

In contrast, other sections of the token shew minimal wear
and are characteristic of a XF 40 grade.

The token does shew mild environmental damage (corrosion).
The corrosion should be noted, but is not sufficient to
detract from a technical grade.

Aside of the ding below the horse's Haunch, the fields shew
less dings than one would expect on many VF ensamples.
The rims do not appear to have any noticeable distractions (damage).
I suspect some of the cloudiness within the devices could be minimized
thus enhancing to appearance of the token.

Is the glass half full or half empty?

In this case, I opted to the higher grade, primarily because one would
expect wear to be more uniform throughout. How could the stronger
elements (mentioned in a previous narrative) not shew comparable wear.

This token shews no die-cracks indicating the lack of late state die fatigue.
What caused the weaker areas? Perhaps a slightly lighter weight planchet
contributed, perhaps the strike was not struck squarely. I do not know.

And yes, I am always learning and willing to change.

doug
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1101 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2016  07:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list
I'm happy with VF. That's about what I was expecting. Since this is my first one of these tokens, I am not that familiar with the grading of them. The posts by Doug and Wade about points to look for in the grading is very helpful.

Thanks!
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Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2016  11:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list
thanks Doug,

sooooooo many factors to take into consideration with this series.

I always appreciate your perspective - helps me look at my own coins with an unbiased opinion.
Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts
 Posted 09/26/2016  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SHAFTA9a to your friends list

Quote:
I am always learning and willing to change.

Don't change anything Doug...you are the greatest when it comes to tokens.
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