Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1859 Provincial Cent With Retained Wood Or Fiber Fragment?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 24 / Views: 2,829Next Topic Page 2 of 2
Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2017  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list
I enjoy seeing this one each time you post it DEVLEC. I agree with Okie and Alan. I think it was in the planchet when it was struck. I keep wondering how much farther it goes under the split, and if it is wood or some other material.

The pressure of rolling the strip would have flattened whatever it is and maybe squeezed out something that caused the metal to stay separated, and cause the corrosion it appears to have under the surface. I'm trying to use my imagination here to come up with something. That's a very wild guess.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
9866 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  08:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list
The planchets were produced by Heaton Mint.Perhaps the piece of debris managed to enter the crack during transit. Something like that occurring in one out of ten millions isn't far fetched.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
United States
1346 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  09:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 999fine to your friends list
A great lamination flaw!
Moderator
Learn More...
Canada
10463 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list

Quote:
That piece of "whatever" was in the cent at striking time..IMO ..and somehow was rolled into the bronze strip.


Strips were rolled from long rods, which were poured from cast molds. The liquid bronze alloy would have burnt anything wooden "in" the mixture.

The rolling processes was a gradational high pressure flattening of the bronze rod into a sheet of a measured thickness. At any time, during the annealing of the rods or strips, would have burnt any wooden debris inside the annealing furnace.


Quote:
There would be a gap in the crack if that piece had been pushed in. Why push in that piece and not pry it open with a knife blade..? It's far too tight and there is just no space to do that. It could never have been pushed in like that and leave the flat fleck of bronze like showing in the first photo.


Lamination edges are sharp... slide any coin with a retained lamination over a piece of rough wood and see what happens. Heck, even not-so-sharp features can catch wood fragments - slide your bare hand over a sheet of rough-finished plywood to see how many slivers of wood become embedded in your hand...

I remain convinced that this planchet was not made with the wood inside, nor was the coin struck with the wood under the metal surface. If there was a retained lamination crack in this coin, then it is easily possible to get a sliver of wood under there...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
5593 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list
I thought that they were rolled from small ingots, not rods. I think that the wood got in there in the "rolling" part.
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list

Quote:
I remain convinced that this planchet was not made with the wood inside, nor was the coin struck with the wood under the metal surface. If there was a retained lamination crack in this coin, then it is easily possible to get a sliver of wood under there...


I don't know. The strike certainly seems to have conformed to the piece of wood in the circled area of the image:

1859-Provincial-Cent-With-Retained-Wood-Or-Fiber-Fragment?

....and DEVLEC's original auction image (albeit not perfectly clear) hints that the lamination is too flat to have had something forced under it. With an extraneous sliver of wood under it, one would not be able to force a lamination back to being that flat. One could assume that the seller did this, thereby delaminating the missing piece, but....

....for scale, one of the beads on the reverse is approximately half a millimeter in diameter. Looking at the visual relationships presented by the images, it can't be imagined that the sliver of wood noted could be more than a tenth of a millimeter in thickness - two sheets of paper - and that's an overly-generous estimation, I think. I sincerely doubt that a piece of wood that thin could be "forced" anywhere.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  09:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DEVLEC to your friends list
Well I've asked for expert input on this and I'm certainly receiving some. Just a great unique anomaly for sure.

Are we even certain that the foreign piece is actually wood ? I do understand that melting bronze should not allow any wood to remain in the strips..but what about some type of tough fiber ? I wouldn't think that it would survive either. I still believe that nothing was pushed into that cent.

Would that piece (and the air around it) cause the crack to form and slowly propagate with expanding pressure until at did indeed crack open ?

I do appreciate the input so far.. Lot's of developing theories..

Where are the metallurgists when you need them ?

I like Dave's input and glad that I brought this back for him.

Thanks all for taking the time to add your views on this weird one.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1224 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  2:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list
I have to agree with SPP here. I don't understand how this could have come to be at any time pryer to or during the minting of the coin. If you look closely at the area SsuperDdave has circled you can see a small void on the left side of the foreign object. With the tons of pressure required to mint coins I wouldn't think there would be any void at all and it would be more imbedded into the coin. There is also a direction to the splitting in the planchet running horizontally in the picture as evidenced near the tip of the object, if you follow the path you can see it on both sides of the foreign object. The object is in a opposite direction to these lines and there is no evidence on the top of the object indicating a left/ right direction. I suspect if you could somehow look under the piece you would find these lines would flow uninterrupted.
A more plausible explanation would be that someone a long time ago came across this coin and noticed the lamination problem running around the edge and decided to see if they could pry it open. It's quite evident from where the missing piece broke off that it was bent upwards and from the original photo you can see it cracked when bent back down. The section directly above the object also appears to be raised slightly and probably from the insertion of said object. The lamination on the 1888 pictured below is a coin that I'm quite sure I could insert a small sliver of wood under and replicate a similar appearance.
Don't get me wrong this is a great coin and an real conversation piece but I don't think it left the mint with this piece inside.

Cheers, Bill

1859-Provincial-Cent-With-Retained-Wood-Or-Fiber-Fragment?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list
What if it were asbestos fibers as Okiecoiner mentioned in the old thread from a couple of years ago. It could have survived the heat and been rolled into the strip.

DEVLEC, maybe you should have a tiny bit of whatever it is analyzed to find out.
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
A planchet lamination can involve an inclusion - foreign matter in the alloy mix - and either way it was a lamination on the roll/strip; it didn't develop after the strike. Over 100+ years of varying environments and temperature/humidity changes, there is ample opportunity for foreign substances even if in gaseous form to work their way into the lamination, and react with whatever inclusion was there. We know it's open at the rim.

One might slip a sliver of wood in there, but - as I mentioned in my last post - contemplate the thickness of what we're seeing. Can you slip a sliver of paper in there?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  3:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DEVLEC to your friends list

Quote:

DEVLEC, maybe you should have a tiny bit of whatever it is analyzed to find out.


It's bad enough that the seller picked at it (to our blessing) ..but I could never do that..

What kind of x-ray scan could possibly penetrate that surface a bit ?..hmmm

My dentist always has the newest toys to scan our teeth with so maybe on my next visit..
Moderator
Learn More...
Canada
10463 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list

Quote:
I thought that they were rolled from small ingots, not rods. I think that the wood got in there in the "rolling" part.


Maybe bosox can chime in on this one... but for the segregation of the brass 1859 strikes, you would need differential cooling to allow for segregation of alloys - I can see that happening in a long cast rod, but not a small ingot...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Moderator
Learn More...
Canada
10463 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list

Quote:
One might slip a sliver of wood in there, but - as I mentioned in my last post - contemplate the thickness of what we're seeing


Easy - if the wood that was driving against the surface was thick. Think of how the wood behaves when it is pressed against a sharp hand planer. It does not start as a paper-thin curl, but with enough force, and thick enough wood forced against it...

If this coin slid along a hardwood countertop, with enough force, you could shove a shaving of wood in there...

If it was there before the strike, given the annealing and striking process, this thing should have turned to charcoal and created a gas bubble in the planchet...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
5593 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list
I don't think that the annealing or striking process would get any where near the temp required to burn the wood.
Moderator
Learn More...
Canada
10463 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list

Quote:
I don't think that the annealing or striking process would get any where near the temp required to burn the wood.


Flash point of wood is 300 Celsius... annealing is normally conducted within the temperature range of 500-750°C

"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Page 2 of 2   Previous TopicReplies: 24 / Views: 2,829Next Topic Page 2 of 2
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.37 seconds to rattle this change. Forums