1911 Large Cent Rim Lines?

You lost me. Oh, you mean these little tiny lines?



No idea, maybe Die Deterioration.

fourmack ... the design detail element that you called rim decals are called "denticles" and they are on every large cent going back to Vicky. I don't know what the "lines" are, but they would have been incuse in the field area between the denticles.... maybe they didn't repolish the working die. Unfortunately, out of all my 1911's that are somewhat handy, nearly all have crud between the denticles. However 2 of them in AU show off the concentric lines just like yours, so yours is not a one-of. To even see the lines, the coin has to be at least XF and have no crud between the denticles.

I've wondered about these marks also Don. I've seen them referred to as tool marks or file marks, but not really sure what caused them.

On the ones I've seen on the Victoria cents, they appear to have been made in the working dies, which would be helpful for die tracking as they would be a little different for each die.

Here is a photo of similar marks on an 1882H Victoria cent. On this coin the marks extended down to the vine loops.

I have a theory about what could have caused those marks. I may be totally wrong, but something caused them, so here's my theory.

I understand the soft blank dies that are impressed with the punch have a slightly conical shape so the design is impressed in the center of the die first and then later pressings deepen the design until it is complete. The outer perimeter of the die would be the last place where the design of the punch was transferred fully.

To get the conical shape on the blank die, it would have to have been turned on a lathe which would leave light tool marks like the grooves on a phonograph record. In 1911 the lathes were slow turning and the tool bit was probably carbon steel, so it is very likely these tiny grooves would have been left on the blank die. If the final pressing with the punch did not eliminate all evidence of the lathe tool marks on the outer perimeter of the finished die, it would show up like the marks on Don's coin between the denticles.

That's the only thing I can think of that would explain it.

The marks on the 1882H that I posted are not the same and couldn't be lathe tool marks. I would think they were caused by a file cleaning up a burr on the edge of the die after it was finished. They extend too far down into the field.

Those are what error collectors call "lathe lines" or "lathe rings"

These concentric rings are produced by a lathe which shapes the cone-shaped face of the unfinished working die. The cone is supposed to be subsequently polished smooth before punching (or hubbing in US terminology). If polishing is omitted or inadequate, the surface will remain covered by concentric lathe marks which will not be erased by subsequent hubbing.



I wrote about this phenomena occurring in Canadian Edward VII large cents in the CN Journal some time ago. If you are a RNCA member, you can go online and read it. Look for the December 2013 issue.

So you would say that this is the same?

We do... it is not easy trying to reverse engineer what we think might have happened, and sometimes we still can't figure stuff out or get it right... but that is the fun part of the hobby for some of us.

Thanks for all the valuable information everyone! Here's one that appears to have lathe lines on both sides:

1863 US Civil War patriotic token - Crossed Flag with Rays, Star of David reverse F-189/399a