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Coin Damaged And Strong Patina(Id: Republic Of Siena, Parpagliola Or Fraction, Late 15th/Early 16th)

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Valued Member
Italy
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 Posted 05/30/2020  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manry to your friends list

Coin-Damaged-And-Strong-PatinaId:-Republic-Of-Siena,-Parpagliola-Or-Fraction,-Late-15th/Early-16th
Coin-Damaged-And-Strong-PatinaId:-Republic-Of-Siena,-Parpagliola-Or-Fraction,-Late-15th/Early-16th

Spence the diameter is 2.1cm.
The weight is less of 1 gram
Valued Member
Italy
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 Posted 05/30/2020  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manry to your friends list
Anyway thx to all you great support
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Italy
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 Posted 05/31/2020  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manry to your friends list
News



Coin-Damaged-And-Strong-PatinaId:-Republic-Of-Siena,-Parpagliola-Or-Fraction,-Late-15th/Early-16th
Coin-Damaged-And-Strong-PatinaId:-Republic-Of-Siena,-Parpagliola-Or-Fraction,-Late-15th/Early-16th
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United States
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 Posted 06/01/2020  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list
I think its a silver Quattrino from the Republic of Siena
Similar to this one.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces88960.html

I think I can read [vi]ena [Vet]vs civ so maybe an issue for a city ending in O?

This wiki page has an interesting map of their expansion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Siena
Valued Member
Italy
197 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2020  06:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manry to your friends list
Very appreciate help and GREAT the Siena republic is ok
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 Posted 06/01/2020  09:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list
@gc, I think that you are onto something as Sienna looks like a pretty good match for that central letter S. The Quattrinos of that time measure more like 16 or 17 mm in diameter and the S doesn't take up quite as much of the real estate on the obv, but I think that you have us pretty close.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 06/01/2020  11:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list
Hopefully someone else can get us all the way there, I can't find any reference online. I may have to buy some books.
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 Posted 06/01/2020  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list
@Gincoin, Wow! Nice job. I will try to dive into CNI in the next few days, which should have more options for a positive ID.
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 Posted 06/02/2020  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list
What is CNI? Searching it brings up California Numismatic Investments or Canadian National Railway.
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 Posted 06/02/2020  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list
Corpus Nummorum Italicorum (Vol. XI Toscana - Zecche Minori)

I think it is the next denomination up, 1/2 perpagliola, second half of 15th century, which has a legend on the "S" side SENA VETVS CIVTAS VIRGI, or a variant. On the other side there is a floriate cross, and legend ALFA ET O PRINCIPIV FINIS (or variant). We can see FA ET from 10:00-12:00, and INI at 6:00-7:00 in the last photo.
Mass is quite variable, but usually 0.9-1.0 g, and diameter 18-19 mm. The next larger denomination (parpagliola = 1/2 grosso) has a different design.

I think @spence has Biaggi, and may be able to check this?

Siena Republic, 2d half 15th century, 1/2 parpagliola CNI #57-65. https://www.numismaticadellostato.i...ction=invoke p. 378

Edited by tdziemia
06/02/2020 10:50 pm
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 Posted 06/03/2020  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list
@tdz, yes between your CNI and my Biaggi, we would seem to have most all of medieval Italy covered but this coin is still not completely settled in my mind. I am struggling with this coin still because as you point out, the weight and/or diameter are off. During the first two thirds of the Sienna Republic (1404 to 1555), both Half and Full Paragliolas were minted. The full ones are 22 or 23 mm in diameter and 1.9 to 2.0 g. The halves are 17 or 18 mm in diameter and 1.3 g.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 06/03/2020  4:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list
# 65 on page 379 of cni is pretty close a half pargallola

so is # 73 on page 380 a half grosso though I think it has a wolf on it instead of an s.

I can't seem to find any reverses with "NIN" on them
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 Posted 06/04/2020  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list
The good thing about CNI is that many variants of each type are listed and described, and there is a lot of data on dimensions. That's also a bad thing if you decide to go "into the weeds" which is what I just did.

I am coming around to this possibly being a parpagliola or grosso that was clipped or is on an undersized flan. Coins of the Siena Republic called grosso, parpagliola or half parpagliola can have the general design features of the OPs coin (floriate S obverse, floriate cross reverse, each side with longer legends than the quattrino).

For the half parpagliola, which is the type closest in mass, CNI describes 20 variants , ALL of which have the floriate S inside a scalloped ring, not a simple circle (see #11 in photo below). For the half parpagliola issued in the second half of 15th century, they have a size range 17-19 mm, and mass range 0.93-1.28 g (midpoint 1.02 g.). For the half parpagliola from the emission of 1514, the size range is again 17-19 mm and the mass 0.76-1.12 g. (midpoint0.95 g.) As @spence has pointed out, these diameters are smaller than the OP coin; also the scallop is missing.

The heavier parpagliola and grosso denominations are rather confusing as described by CNI. For 1404-50 the CNI entry calls this a "Grosso of 10 quattrini called parpagliola" and the size is 21-24 mm. For the emission of 1511 it just says "Grosso of 10 quattrini" (20-23 mm), and for the emission of 1514 it says "Parpagliola or half grosso" (20-21 mm)

The second of these, the grosso of the 1511 emission, has a variant with no scallop around the S obverse, or the cross reverse (#17 below)

Finally, as pointed out by @gincoin, there seem to be minor anomalies in the legends (to the extent we can see them). The obverse legend should be something like SENA VETVS CIVITAS VIRGINIS, and the OPs coin ends in RG (which I assume is VIRG). While there are many variants of spelling of the last word, CNI only has VIRG for the grosso I mentioned above, never for the half parpagliola.
The reverse legend should be something like ALFA ET W PRINCI ET FINIS, so indeed there is no sequence NIN.

Still, I think we could wrap this up by saying it is Republic of Siena, parpagliola or fraction, late 15th/early 16th. I think the condition of the coin will prevent us from making a more certain ID.
Coin-Damaged-And-Strong-PatinaId:-Republic-Of-Siena,-Parpagliola-Or-Fraction,-Late-15th/Early-16th
Edited by tdziemia
06/04/2020 4:34 pm
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 Posted 06/04/2020  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list

Quote:
Still, I think we could wrap this up by saying it is Republic of Siena, parpagliola or fraction, late 15th/early 16th. I think the condition of the coin will prevent us from making a more certain ID.


Agreed. Well done team!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
New Member
Italy
1 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2021  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kievrus to your friends list
Hi,nice find indeed, that's actually a grosso da 7 soldi delibered after december the 9th 1507. From Siena but you already figured it out.
MIR 536
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