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 Replies: 21 / Views: 4,201 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4406 Posts |
Quote:
double die on a single strike I think you fundamentally misunderstand doubled dies. I've seen you post things along this line multiple times now uncorrected. Doubled dies don't occur during striking. Doubled dies are the duplication of design elements on the working hub that occur during the hubbing process (the transfer of the design to the working dies / the creation of dies). This includes dies that are hubbed multiple times with slight misalignments or the die/hub shifting during a single hubbing. All coins struck by that die then will show doubling. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
I would like to see images on the right side of the coin to see if there is MD on the right sides of the devices. I have a feeling that when direction is considered, the answer will be a real sloppy MD with a twist that is altering the devices on the left side. The RTY is not affected as the bust is protecting those devices. But on the right side we will see the outer devices affected with the MD and Probably the motto and the bust. It looks like I can see MD on the earlobe.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Tanman you are right. This it is the definition (for the old way to produce and adjust the dies). To day a die is done by laser. It is almost no way to have this.
The only thing could happened to day is a move of the die to .25 deg. from the axes (the tolerance) which can give this DD (the modern term). MD, yes this could be all the time, is to fast and differences are almost inevitable.
Edited by silviosi
04/10/2021 11:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4406 Posts |
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New Member
 United States
22 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
Looking more like a high bounce Machine Doubling issue or a coin ejection issue, which is also a MD issue. The devices are not hub doubled, but normal and altered. Thanks for the last set of images, as they helped a lot more. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4406 Posts |
Doubling on UNITED and QUARTER DOLLAR is Die Deterioration Doubling, not a doubled die. Extra thickness on RTY in LIBERTY (and maybe STATES?) is a doubled die. It's not nearly as strong as it, but I don't see how this thickness is different from the known 2019-P NMI DDO. Literally the same thing happened when the first one was found here on CCF. Everyone focused on the DDD and missed the real doubling. I pointed out the real doubling and it was later confirmed by Wexler and Wiles. A side-by-side has to be made of the last few letters in LIBERTY. I don't have time this morning. |
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New Member
United States
22 Posts |
I greatly appreciate everyones thoughts and insight! You are all a wonderful resource. I will consider sending it for attribution based on Tanman2001 opinion and the other thread that was posted with a very similar coin.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5786 Posts |
Glad Tanman chimed in because I missed the doubling on LIBERTY until he mentioned it.
I can see the separation on the foot of the R (LIBERTY) the most. Congrats.
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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New Member
United States
22 Posts |
Hello all, I sent off the coin to John Wexler and recently received it back with a letter explaining that it is indeed a new listing due to the double die doubling on the RTY of LIBERTY (Thanks Tanman2001 for helping to affirm this!). He states it will be attributed as 2020-P 25c VI WDDO-002. Very excited to have the new attribution! However, one small thing I am confused by is the "VI"; I figured that would be "Virgin Islands" (Quarter from 2009) but this is a NMI quarter. I suppose I should email him and inquire? He also explained in the letter that he is going to use it as an educational piece in his varieties notebook column in Coin World in the June 21st installment; very cool! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4406 Posts |
Congrats mjp79! I figure the "VI" is just a typo. I've seen the state abbreviations get mixed up on his site before. I had one more ATB DDO (2020 VI) to get to complete my set. Now I need two more.  Edited by Tanman2001
06/05/2021 11:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5786 Posts |
Congrats on the new listing. All the Die Deterioration on the coin sure distracted from the true doubling on the RTY of LIBERTY. Hopefully, someone finds an earlier die state coin without the Die Deterioration and posts images. The separation on the leg of the R is what clinched it for me. Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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New Member
United States
22 Posts |
Just posting about this to close the loop on this coin. After holding onto the coin for a while, I decided to send it to ANACS with a copy of my Wexler letter and a copy of the article from Wexler that highlighted the coin in the June 21st weekly installment of Coin World Magazine (attached). I'm disappointed to say that ANACS did not add the attribution as the letter and article are in error (which I knew) and each reference a 2020-P VI quarter. It's obvious that it's my 2019-P NMI from the article images. I'm not too surprised it didn't get attributed on the slab but I guess I was hoping some power of deduction would be done as I did pay the extra attribution fee (hoping maybe they could rectify on their end). Alas, I now have a slabbed MS 64 unattributed quarter. The note from ANACS states "Coin struck from worn dies. Not an error or variety. The coin referenced in the Wexler letter is a 2020-P Virgin Islands 25C" I guess it will just serve as a curiosity with an interesting story.     |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Quote:
I've seen you post things along this line multiple times now uncorrected. Doubled dies don't occur during striking. Doubled dies are the duplication of design elements on the working hub that occur during the hubbing process (the transfer of the design to the working dies / the creation of dies). @TAN: FIRST I want to congrat. YOU. In my post and many time I say this it is " Almost impossible to still have a D/D" This do not means can not happened. The graving of the dies are complete automatic, drive by the computer with the laser process. A Die production from the main design is about 2 min. The die come it is aligned, and the operator give OK for graving only if the alignments meet the parameters (+,-, 0.25 deg. horizontal or vertical). This it is the process's. To happened a D/D mean that the operator for one reason of other stop the machine, and when come back this process is repeat. On this instance, could happens. Normally the operator do not has the permission to stop if the operation it is not finish. Could happened. If John agrees, and behind him, was others monsters specialists, mean was like this. And because this kind is very hard to spot, I say : It is your Benefit on all, probably max 40K coins which will go unseen. My field it is the production line, the alloys with theirs proprieties, the "LAM" how is say with the variations of delam, foliation, ex-foliation structural crack. The D/D attract me but I am not a good person to recognize them if it is not like example 1958. In my few hundreds of KG of coins I test for my interest probably I have D/D's but I am not able to recognize. I am very happy to see a new D/D recognize, and come from one of the members here. One day if we will be more free to travel, and I will know is you, I will present my self and will be a pleasure for me to meet you. I learn something, Thanks, Silvio PS:, Manny things I wrote are for learning purpose. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4406 Posts |
Congrats on the listing and the acknowledgement in Coin World! But yikes Wexler really dropped the ball mislabeling this as a 2020-P VI. I was hoping it was just a typo on the letter he gave you but it seems that's what he listed it as through and through. Try reaching out to Wexler via email explaining the situation and how ANACS refused to label it. Maybe he can get back to you and correct this. Edited by Tanman2001
02/01/2022 8:28 pm
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Posted 04/10/2021 9:04 pm
