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A Question - What Would You Do?

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/10/2021  08:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
swamperbob, the beginning of the parable involves discounting to discharge debts. Akin to moving "dead stock" IMO. It unburdened the debtors - an act of calculated mercy - with more than a hint of revenge on the master. It would be analogous to a store employee intentionally dropping a gold coin into the junk box.

Surprisingly to me this stratagem also satisfied the master, who could just as well have thrown the manager in prison. It was a risky act of shrewdness on the part of the dishonest manager. He squandered the master's assets yet satisfied all parties.

I have never been lucky enough to find a gold coin in the 10 cent box, so have never thought about it. I have found coins that have value beyond their melt worth, but can see that those coins are in there because dead stock has to go. A British Trade dollar is in the sack of melters because the dealer has no buyers in Bradenton and not because he made a mistake. I used to see the same thing in the dealer loose bullion coin cans. 1919-D Walkers and 1934-S Peace dollars, mingled in with all the other commons. One look at the display cases showed the same coins in holders, with no one buying them. Once again the dealer knew exactly what he had, but he didn't need more duplicates cluttering his showcases.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
07/10/2021 2:30 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2021  04:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
thq You say in part:

Quote:
It would be analogous to a store employee intentionally dropping a gold coin into the junk box.


I certainly hope that you do not see that such an action in anyway justifies taking advantage of the dealer? Two wrongs never make a right.

In any event, your reading of the parable may seem to be the literal (face value) meaning of the story but as in most instances the parable contains a moral story that actually is a denunciation of dishonesty. Remember parables also reveal a truth that may not be obvious to the casual listener.

The setting of this parable is critical here. The preceding parables were clearly addressed to the Pharisees who were in attendance.

The steward is called dishonest as he is. He is a lawbreaker. The commendation is for his shrewdness not for his act of dishonesty. The master in this case, who is about to fire the steward is not a representation of a positive individual like in most parables where God is implied, but rather he is a wealthy man who is not about to give money away. He is just the type of person that is seen as a lover of his money. Jesus is addressing a mixed audience of believers (disciples) and Pharisees who he is lambasting for their love of money.

You need to view the context of the statement not just the statement in isolation. The ultimate point of the story is the Love of money is the root of evil not that the money itself is evil, but that it is better to give money away than to gain money in an unjust manner.

The second part of the quote contains the real condemnation because in it is a comparison between the "sons of this world" (evil people, non-believers, Pharasees) and the "sons of light" (followers of the way, the believers). So placing the dishonest steward in the ranks of the sons of this world condemns him while the less shrewd sons of light are actually being commended. Shrewdness in dealings is a sign of the love of money beyond our fellow man.

The third sentence is the most difficult to understand on an isolated literal level, but in context it is apparent that Jesus now addresses his followers as well as the Pharisees using a comparative analysis of the situation. He draws out the comparison of the intent of the steward who is attempting to curry favor with people in this world versus the disciples who he indicates in many places should give away their wealth now, so that they can spend eternity with the people they have helped.

There is an equally plausible interpretation that the concluding statement could be taken as a sarcastic view of where the steward will end up - sharing the homes of the unjust in their eternal destination of hades. I personally do not prefer that meaning but I can see it is possible.

The explanation that the steward was simply unburdening the debtors of usury that had been demanded by his equally guilty master (and that he did it as a way of punishing his master) is not actually in the story but is a later interpretation used by some more fundamentalist leaning authors to attempt to explain the literal word by word meaning without resorting to a text critical approach which they frown upon. An example of such a reading would be the NASB revised edition where an explanation similar to yours is mentioned.

As I said above, I zealously choose to defend my worldview against the views of this secular world that believe reaping an unwarranted gain is acceptable in business. I believe such money is an unjust gain and as my grandfather was also quick to say "Unjust gains never bring any good to anyone."

Your examples of dealer Overstock are entirely correct as long as you discovered that was the actual motivation of the dealer. Some dealers do that intentionally. However, by asking him if he made an error, I would suggest that it justifies the purchase at a lower price. A failure to ask and to confirm his intent leaves the possibility that it was an error on his part and that renders the gain unjust. I value absolute honesty far more than money.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/11/2021  04:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I want to thank everyone for your replies.

I asked the question primarily as a way of discussing a topic that I will address in tomorrow's session at the Church. Right now, I am at a Church which is still new to me, and I am obliged to deal with the issue of money. It is a difficult topic to cover anyway, but in my current posting it is particularly complicated since I basically come from a far different theological background.

The coin business is something very foreign to the congregation which is extremely rural also not normal for me. So hopefully I can use the setting as an indirect way of addressing the topic.

Valued Member
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399 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2021  08:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cons to your friends list
Swamperbob. I must agree with your assertions regarding love of humans over money and the importance to your soul. However, a coin dealer (presumably has extensive knowledge) is also responsible for setting the price. Inventory is the greatest asset in most retail businesses. Managing the inventory is key to success. I give back overpaid money because the price was set. If you agree to pay more than fair market will you get a refund? No unless coerced.

At what point do you as a customer try to save the business owner from themselves?

Would you insist on paying more for anything else in a retail setting?

Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2021  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
Bob speaks from the standpoint of being a true expert in his field Cons. The rest of us would get our hats handed to us if we claimed to be smarter than the dealer. It's his shop and I'm his customer. If I question his judgement I keep it to myself. That usually means walking away from polished overpriced coins without saying a word.

I remember once examining a raw Liberty dollar priced somewhat above market. It didn't take a loupe to see the pinscratches, which of course were not noted on the flip. In that case I told the dealer exactly what he had, walked out and never went back. My experience with dealer mistakes over 40 years is not finding underpriced coins in the cull bin, but finding aggressively priced problem coins.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
07/11/2021 09:29 am
Valued Member
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399 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2021  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cons to your friends list
thq Agree ... your point about swampbob as expert in his field does seem to identify a unique problem for him as he has more knowledge than the majority of customers.
Edited by Cons
07/11/2021 10:02 am
Pillar of the Community
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5362 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2021  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
thq You say:

Quote:
My experience with dealer mistakes over 40 years is not finding underpriced coins in the cull bin, but finding aggressively priced problem coins.


That is the flip side of the discussion in this thread. Greedy dishonest dealers who overprice their stock while under valuing coins they buy is a pet peeve of mine. I would be willing to bet there is less disagreement on that topic. Since dealers routinely know the market far better than their customers they have all of the advantage in day to day transactions. The majority of dealers today are IMO reprehensible thieves. A fair profit is one thing, but what I observe is criminal.

That is why I often do not disclose my credentials when meeting a new dealer - until I can get a sense of their honesty. I really like to first spot a "bad" coin in their stock and engage them in conversation specifically about that coin and it's potential to spot check honesty.

I have heard many VERY TALL tales doing that.

I know I would do very poorly as a dealer. I would pay too much and sell for too little. However, I really do not care to be a dealer. Most coin dealers I sense do not fall into the ranks of the highly admired. (I need to say that there are some very notable exceptions, but they are getting scarce now-a-days.) I wonder where coin dealers would place in rank order in relation to politicians, used car salesman and defense lawyers?

Should we start a poll on that topic or leave well enough alone?

Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
I'd leave well enough alone. We've all had our bad experiences, sometimes with the biggest players. Hope your discussion went well yesterday. I was busy tracking down my great great grandfather's Welsh Congregational roots. I'm more Welsh than I knew. Our family frugality trait has not been lost over the last 150 years.

I was trying to find examples for this discussion of coin dealers being kind. For me coin collecting is enjoyable for the new discoveries.The case full of semi key Half Dimes, the box full of 4R cobs, the shipwreck rijder, the notebooks full of French coins. These discoveries led to new learnings and new focuses for collecting. My best thanks to the dealer is purchases and repeat business. I dealt with a professional and wasn't taken advantage of.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
07/12/2021 5:55 pm
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list
To me it depends on the item. Something with clear intrinsic value such as silver, gold, I let the dealer know. If it is a matter of a rare variety I think a collector's education and endeavors to find the item is of value. A regular Morgan vs a desirable VAM for the same price for example.

"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldfordman to your friends list
I think I agree with bump
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Bump111 Are you a member of the Bump family by any chance?
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list
Not in the Bump family, but I'm originally from Hope Mills by coincidence.

I took my handle from my favorite saxophone player, Cornelius Bumpus.

"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  9:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
thq, Bump111 and OldFordman My comment addresses all three posts together

thq The comment that repeated business is a reward for dealer honesty is a very good point and should always apply unless I guess if there is only one dealer in an area.

Bump111 and OldFordman Finding a VAM variety falls into a category, I had not really considered. It is like finding a Riddell Counterfeit Variety or an Overton coin you have been looking for. Highly specialized information that not all dealers have. I guess I would agree that locating many of the VAM, Overton or Riddell varieties or even a doubled mint mark or one of the many minor doubled die issues in a dealer's inventory is an exercise that is far more rewarding for the finder than anyone else. The difference in value is also usually minimal. Unlikely enough to justify a dealer from investing a lot of time in the area.

However, if the value difference was a very significant amount say hundreds of dollars then I believe that the finder should be rewarded for his expertise. But how much? 100% or 50 % or what?

I would approach the dealer and ask him to confirm the price. If he confirms the price - I would pay the requested price. Then, after I owned the coin, I would ask him if in the future he would like to have the opportunity to make a little bit more on his sales. At that point he might be confused or suspicious but I would persist and ask if he ever considered selling coins by XYZ variety.

If he says it is too much work to be bothered because no one ever comes in looking for XYZ coins then you have your answer. He considered doing it but rejected it based on added work and lack of customer base. So you can if you want keep 100% with no concerns over honesty. I am a softer touch and would still offer a split but smaller in his favor.

If he said he was not aware of XYZ varieties you have an opening to make a friend or source if you want.

Personally, I would advise him that you did collect by XYZ number and this coin was worth ? dollars more than his original price. I would follow that with an offer to somehow split the difference - informing him that under the circumstances it would be fair to him and to you because your knowledge and time were worth something.

Finally I would also offer to help him out in that area of attribution in the future or at least point out one of the VAM derivative books like Cherry Picker's guides to make it easier to do it himself.

I have followed this method with identifying valuable counterfeits and in the process, along the way I picked up a few friends, some part time jobs authenticating for dealers as well as developing channels for new material that is offered to me before others.

I am fully retired now and concentrate in on-line contacts, but still I always offer to help anyone who needs it.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2021  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Bump111 The grandmother who raised me was born Mary Bump. Her great-great grandfather Asahel changed the family name from Bumpus to Bump when he returned from the Revolutionary War. He was a run away indentured servant when he joined George Washington's Army following the Evacuation of Boston in 1776 and served until 1789 at Yorktown. He rose to the rank of sergeant. The original name was French Bompasse. The original immigrant ancestor to the New World was Edward (Edouad) Bompasse who arrived on the Fortune at Plymouth in 1621 and died in 1693. The Bumpus family in Massachusetts was a mixed race family early on before the Revolution. If Cornelius Bumpus' family hailed from Louisiana, I would not be surprised to find we have/had common ancestors because many members of the family migrated there after the Civil War. I moved to the Hope Mills area after my retirement. I love Hope Mills.
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 Posted 07/12/2021  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pmint1 to your friends list
I hate to admit it but I would cherry pick and buy it. Just my honest answer. I assume the dealer is professional and probably bought it in a bulk sale and paid little for it. If it is a situation where it's an obvious gross mistake I would point it out but I'm a cherry picker by nature. I like finding varieties etc. at a fraction of their value at coin shops. Sorry but it's my honest answer. Am I banned from this forum now?
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