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 Replies: 21 / Views: 2,446 |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11898 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/17/2025 9:54 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Looked at a bunch of 1811 O-105s and I don't see this shield with annulets and what look like superimposed tailfeathers on the leg feathers and shield. Odd.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/17/2025 10:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
893 Posts |
I was looking at some 105 and 105a and see the blob defect in the first three or four horizontal lines on many, but not the horizontal defects that to your point look like tail feathers.
What's your take on the reverse and what look like a bunch of pin holes, most notable in the upper half of the coin across the fields and eagle?
Edited by adam126402
04/18/2025 1:13 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Pinholes seem few and not visible without magnification so not really concerned. Probably rubbed against something during its 214 year life.
On the extra devices on the reverse on ther shield and leg feathers, it seems like this reverse die was somehow altered at some point If so there should be other coins with these reverse differences but haven't found one so far.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3663 Posts |
Could these be adjustment marks?  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Weight adjustment marks on the planchet would show as incuse file marks. These appear raised. Die scratches or clashed die transfers on the reverse die would appear raised on the coin's reverse impression. From the well-defined raised elements it looks to me more likely to have been clashed. If the die was scratched or clashed it is likely that other coins were struck with that altered die unless quality control found it right away and retired it. But in 1811, it is more likely that a marginally altered die like this one would continue in use until it failed completely.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/18/2025 9:52 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
I guess they could be from an aggressively polished die?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3663 Posts |
My other pondering is this. Could this be a contemporary counterfeit? If a genuine coin used to make the mold had been scratched, the scratches would transfer, but be raised on copies. That might also explain the pinholes and some of the bumps on the surface. I don't have Davignon's book, but that might be a good starting point to chase that rabbit. EDIT: It might also explain the toning variances. If it is a contemporary counterfeit, you may have hit the jackpot here. Edited by fortcollins
04/19/2025 12:30 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
I suppose that is possible but that is far afield from my small knowledge of numismatics. Thanks to all for your helpful comments.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
893 Posts |
FortCollins, I wondered about it being a contemporary counterfeit as well, but overall thought surfaces looked better than I would expect for a CC made out of some crappy alloy, hence didn't mention that in my comment about pinholes. If they are CC, it should be well short of 13.5 grams. I have two CC Seated Liberty halves and they weigh 8.8 grams, s/b 12.4, and have corrosion as a result of the lousy metal used to make it. I suppose it could be a more modern counterfeit made with real silver. NS, is the weight and measurements correct? Edited by adam126402
04/19/2025 2:48 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
The coin weighs 13.38g whereas the standard is 13.5g. It is also slightly more than 33mm where the standard is 32.5mm. Given that this was struck in an open collar, it seems ok that the coin would expand slightly when struck. Seems within tolerance in these two regards.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3663 Posts |
Quote:
The coin weighs 13.38g whereas the standard is 13.5g. It is also slightly more than 33mm where the standard is 32.5mm. Given that this was struck in an open collar, it seems ok that the coin would expand slightly when struck. Seems within tolerance in these two regards. That almost certainly takes a contemporary counterfeit off the table. The edge looks good from the accompanying pics, too. That answers both of my ideas. You have a good mystery with that one. It's a nice coin! |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18700 Posts |
new photos I'm changing to AU55.
counterfeit is way out of my wheelhouse so no comment.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1933 Posts |
very nice and original---
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Pillar of the Community
United States
893 Posts |
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Replies: 21 / Views: 2,446 |
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Posted 04/17/2025 10:07 pm
