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8 Reales Zs 1835 ... 25.59 Gr ?

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New Member
United States
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 Posted 01/18/2012  12:10 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bobstam to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi everybody!
Hello Swamperbob,

Had a little break from my hobby ... does everybody have them when they get fake coins? Well, it's a topic for another thread. Anyway, I'm back.

Here is the coin I got today from eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/39037894446....m1439.l2649

SG 10.28, my other 8R coins have the same 10.28, so I guess it's a measurement error and the coin has the right silver content.
It looks OK to me, except the weight ... 25.59 g !
It has a reversed edge,
I suspect it's a debased issue, mentioned by Swamperbob in Zacatecas 8 reales thread.

Any comments are very welcome.























Edited by bobstam
01/18/2012 12:21 am
Valued Member
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  1:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add War Nickel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is it cast? It looks a little mushy to my untrained eyes, not a crisp strike in my humble opinion.
New Member
United States
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 Posted 01/18/2012  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobstam to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, the pictures quality is not the best. Almost sure it is not cast.
Pillar of the Community
United States
648 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
bobstam
No expert here. but You are only missing about 1 gram
on a circulated worn coin that maybe OK

Very nice photos especially the edge progressive shots


Quote:
SG 10.28, my other 8R coins have the same 10.28, so I guess it's a measurement error and the coin has the right silver content.



nice
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Canada
1610 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Apollo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The grainy texture and weight of the coin leads to believe it's cast too. I'm no expert in this though...
New Member
United States
47 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobstam to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
tokenmast
Thank you for your reply.
I think in this condition the weight loss of the coin should not be more than 0.4-0.5 gr.
This coin has 1.44 gr weight loss ...
I suspect it is the underweight mint struck.
The coins from this year and the mint had issues. Some of them described here:
http://goccf.com/t/70541


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 Posted 01/18/2012  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is the alluded to thread about that previous debased 1835 Zs piece:

http://goccf.com/t/99996

which referred back to this earlier thread where swamperbob discussed some issues relating to the Zacatecas pieces:

http://goccf.com/t/70541

This piece clearly has an odd look... Overall, the styling/detail does look correct for an issue produced from official dies (or dies made from official punches, referring to Bob's theories) - but those surfaces... It doesn't seem like a cast, though; that looks like there was an alloy problem, some kind of annealing issue. Those voids look more like numerous tiny lamination flaws rather than casting pores, plus there are a few larger flaws.
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 Posted 01/18/2012  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Apollo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Where is Swamper, by the way?
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 Posted 01/18/2012  10:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been away a few days buying fakes in Florida.

The 1835 Zs appears to be one of the "real" but debased issues of Zacatecas. The edge is actually doubled it appears, The 1835 and 1836 coins were actually very poorly made. It was under State control until 1836 and then the Central Government took it over - in part for very shoddy work in 1835 and 1836.

The standards are LOOSER in those 2 years at Zacatecas.

The coins are technically fraudulent in that they fail to come up to standards BUT they are real as far a collector is concerned.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
426 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, that coin looks like it's related to my 1835.

http://goccf.com/t/99996

I'm away from my references right now but I believe 1835 was one of the worse years for planchet porosity accounting for the "mushiness".

Either way nice coin! Love the mysterious origin of these pieces!
Edited by RealPeso
01/19/2012 5:48 pm
New Member
United States
47 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobstam to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob - Thank you very much for your valuable opinion.

Thank you all for your comments.

RealPeso

Quote:
Love the mysterious origin of these pieces!




The fact that the coin has such a low weight but is a real coin makes it unusual and interesting.
I'm glad I can add the coin to my small collection
Edited by bobstam
01/19/2012 8:17 pm
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 Posted 03/01/2012  05:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Valued Member
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 Posted 03/01/2012  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Larryh86GT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher - I don't know about the coin you are asking about but I do have a question about the edge of the 1835 coin the OP posted in the 6th picture. Why is the edge slanted or on an angle? Is is normal? Did the stamping process do this?

Larry
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4947 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2012  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher - The 1836 Zs coin appears real. The porosity is a planchet defect not the result of casting. If you look at the coin the "pores" are concentrated in places where the die pressure is lowest - at the deepest parts of the die. There are far fewer visible pores in the high pressure areas (fields). This is typical of how the pressure of the strike CLOSES pores on the high pressure surfaces while leaving the pores nearly intact on the low pressure areas.

Simply stated the lowest point of the design (which is the highest point of the die) makes contact with the planchet first and with the highest pressure. The deepest recesses of the die (the high points of the coin design) are contacted last, if at all, and receive the lowest pressure.

In hand struck coins (a screw press is operated manually), the pressure exerted is lower than on a steam press and weak strikes are normal. A weakly struck coin shows features consistent with the original surface of the planchet at the high points of the design. That is why so many eagles lack their breast feathers even on MS grade coins. This weakness is also a reason that grading the series is very difficult.

So the 1836 is normal but a typically weak strike for the mint making it rather common.

Larryh86GT I believe part of the problem is the angle of the photo. The segments in the lower portion of the picture are absolutely correct - as you look toward the top of the picture something changes. It could be that the edger had a worn retaining lip (or a broken one) allowing the blank to slip or the original punch that made the blank could have been worn. But something caused the blank to tilt in the edger just at the point of release from the edger mill. It is a commonly occurring feature on the poorly made coins of the State run mint.

Unfortunately features like both of the above can get confusing when authenticating coins of this period. In many cases pores are the results of casting and a slanted edge is the result of shoddy work by forgers - but just keep in mind that you need to fully think through the mechanics of how a coin was actually made to understand when a "feature" crosses the line dividing fake from real. That is the part of authentication that takes the most time to develop.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 03/01/2012  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The 1836 Zs coin appears real. The porosity is a planchet defect not the result of casting. If you look at the coin the "pores" are concentrated in places where the die pressure is lowest...

Bob, the debased Zacatecas issues were STRUCK (using some semblance of actual mint punches/dies), not cast, correct? This piece was clearly struck, not cast, and it seems the design elements are correct... I was assuming it was a struck debased piece figuring that the porosity was due to an alloy impurity/annealing issue, and b/c the patina/tone of the piece, to me, is like that you see on silver lower than .900 fine.


Quote:
It could be that the edger had a worn retaining lip (or a broken one) allowing the blank to slip or the original punch that made the blank could have been worn. But something caused the blank to tilt in the edger just at the point of release from the edger mill. It is a commonly occurring feature on the poorly made coins of the State run mint.

I don't think that's all optical illusion - definitely looks like there's a slight slope to the edge as it runs from obverse to reverse. I've noticed that effect on a decent amount of portrait 8R also...
Edited by realeswatcher
03/01/2012 3:19 pm
Valued Member
United States
319 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2012  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Larryh86GT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't think that's all optical illusion - definitely looks like there's a slight slope to the edge as it runs from obverse to reverse. I've noticed that effect on a decent amount of portrait 8R also...


I've got a couple 8 reales portrait coins that have this slope on the edge which is the reason I asked about it. I have not seen anything about this edge slope before and was curious.
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