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 Replies: 22 / Views: 3,899 |
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New Member
United States
47 Posts |
Hi everybody! Hello Swamperbob, Had a little break from my hobby  ... does everybody have them when they get fake coins?  Well, it's a topic for another thread. Anyway, I'm back.  Here is the coin I got today from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/39037894446....m1439.l2649SG 10.28, my other 8R coins have the same 10.28, so I guess it's a measurement error and the coin has the right silver content. It looks OK to me, except the weight ... 25.59 g ! It has a reversed edge, I suspect it's a debased issue, mentioned by Swamperbob in Zacatecas 8 reales thread. Any comments are very welcome.            Edited by bobstam
01/18/2012 12:21 am
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Valued Member
United States
172 Posts |
Is it cast? It looks a little mushy to my untrained eyes, not a crisp strike in my humble opinion.
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New Member
 United States
47 Posts |
Sorry, the pictures quality is not the best. Almost sure it is not cast.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
648 Posts |
bobstam No expert here. but You are only missing about 1 gram on a circulated worn coin that maybe OK  Very nice photos especially the edge progressive shots Quote:
SG 10.28, my other 8R coins have the same 10.28, so I guess it's a measurement error and the coin has the right silver content.   nice   |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1610 Posts |
The grainy texture and weight of the coin leads to believe it's cast too. I'm no expert in this though...
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New Member
United States
47 Posts |
tokenmast Thank you for your reply. I think in this condition the weight loss of the coin should not be more than 0.4-0.5 gr. This coin has 1.44 gr weight loss ... I suspect it is the underweight mint struck. The coins from this year and the mint had issues. Some of them described here: https://goccf.com/t/70541 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Here is the alluded to thread about that previous debased 1835 Zs piece: https://goccf.com/t/99996which referred back to this earlier thread where swamperbob discussed some issues relating to the Zacatecas pieces: https://goccf.com/t/70541This piece clearly has an odd look... Overall, the styling/detail does look correct for an issue produced from official dies (or dies made from official punches, referring to Bob's theories) - but those surfaces... It doesn't seem like a cast, though; that looks like there was an alloy problem, some kind of annealing issue. Those voids look more like numerous tiny lamination flaws rather than casting pores, plus there are a few larger flaws. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1610 Posts |
Where is Swamper, by the way?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I have been away a few days buying fakes in Florida.
The 1835 Zs appears to be one of the "real" but debased issues of Zacatecas. The edge is actually doubled it appears, The 1835 and 1836 coins were actually very poorly made. It was under State control until 1836 and then the Central Government took it over - in part for very shoddy work in 1835 and 1836.
The standards are LOOSER in those 2 years at Zacatecas.
The coins are technically fraudulent in that they fail to come up to standards BUT they are real as far a collector is concerned.
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Yep, that coin looks like it's related to my 1835. https://goccf.com/t/99996I'm away from my references right now but I believe 1835 was one of the worse years for planchet porosity accounting for the "mushiness". Either way nice coin! Love the mysterious origin of these pieces! Edited by RealPeso
01/19/2012 5:48 pm
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New Member
United States
47 Posts |
Swamperbob - Thank you very much for your valuable opinion. Thank you all for your comments. RealPeso Quote:
Love the mysterious origin of these pieces! The fact that the coin has such a low weight but is a real coin makes it unusual and interesting. I'm glad I can add the coin to my small collection Edited by bobstam
01/19/2012 8:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
326 Posts |
realeswatcher - I don't know about the coin you are asking about but I do have a question about the edge of the 1835 coin the OP posted in the 6th picture. Why is the edge slanted or on an angle? Is is normal? Did the stamping process do this?
Larry
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
realeswatcher - The 1836 Zs coin appears real. The porosity is a planchet defect not the result of casting. If you look at the coin the "pores" are concentrated in places where the die pressure is lowest - at the deepest parts of the die. There are far fewer visible pores in the high pressure areas (fields). This is typical of how the pressure of the strike CLOSES pores on the high pressure surfaces while leaving the pores nearly intact on the low pressure areas.
Simply stated the lowest point of the design (which is the highest point of the die) makes contact with the planchet first and with the highest pressure. The deepest recesses of the die (the high points of the coin design) are contacted last, if at all, and receive the lowest pressure.
In hand struck coins (a screw press is operated manually), the pressure exerted is lower than on a steam press and weak strikes are normal. A weakly struck coin shows features consistent with the original surface of the planchet at the high points of the design. That is why so many eagles lack their breast feathers even on MS grade coins. This weakness is also a reason that grading the series is very difficult.
So the 1836 is normal but a typically weak strike for the mint making it rather common.
Larryh86GT I believe part of the problem is the angle of the photo. The segments in the lower portion of the picture are absolutely correct - as you look toward the top of the picture something changes. It could be that the edger had a worn retaining lip (or a broken one) allowing the blank to slip or the original punch that made the blank could have been worn. But something caused the blank to tilt in the edger just at the point of release from the edger mill. It is a commonly occurring feature on the poorly made coins of the State run mint.
Unfortunately features like both of the above can get confusing when authenticating coins of this period. In many cases pores are the results of casting and a slanted edge is the result of shoddy work by forgers - but just keep in mind that you need to fully think through the mechanics of how a coin was actually made to understand when a "feature" crosses the line dividing fake from real. That is the part of authentication that takes the most time to develop.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
The 1836 Zs coin appears real. The porosity is a planchet defect not the result of casting. If you look at the coin the "pores" are concentrated in places where the die pressure is lowest... Bob, the debased Zacatecas issues were STRUCK (using some semblance of actual mint punches/dies), not cast, correct? This piece was clearly struck, not cast, and it seems the design elements are correct... I was assuming it was a struck debased piece figuring that the porosity was due to an alloy impurity/annealing issue, and b/c the patina/tone of the piece, to me, is like that you see on silver lower than .900 fine. Quote:
It could be that the edger had a worn retaining lip (or a broken one) allowing the blank to slip or the original punch that made the blank could have been worn. But something caused the blank to tilt in the edger just at the point of release from the edger mill. It is a commonly occurring feature on the poorly made coins of the State run mint. I don't think that's all optical illusion - definitely looks like there's a slight slope to the edge as it runs from obverse to reverse. I've noticed that effect on a decent amount of portrait 8R also... Edited by realeswatcher
03/01/2012 3:19 pm
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Valued Member
United States
326 Posts |
Quote:
I don't think that's all optical illusion - definitely looks like there's a slight slope to the edge as it runs from obverse to reverse. I've noticed that effect on a decent amount of portrait 8R also... I've got a couple 8 reales portrait coins that have this slope on the edge which is the reason I asked about it. I have not seen anything about this edge slope before and was curious. |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 3,899 |
Posted 01/18/2012 2:33 pm
